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I am very much stuck and need somebody with experience to point me in the right direction!

I am looking for something relating to Joseph White before his marriage.
I have certain information.
He was Married in 1900 at St Paul's Finsbury to Susannah Judd. On his marriage certificate his father is listed as Joseph White (decesed). From the 1901/1911 census I have him as being born St Luke London.
From various bits and pieces I have him living at 84 Ironmonger Row, 19 Ironmonger Row, 3 Ironmonger Row, 17 Galway Street, and later in life, 1911 in Gifford Street Shoreditch. He was by profession a Blacksmith (from his marriage cert) and he died in 1940 together with Susannah when there flat was bombed during the war.

Beyond this, I am thus far unable to find him. I have searched for his baptism through the St Luke, Clerkenwell Baptism registers available online fromf 1863-1891 but no luck.

I have found census entries for Joseph White living with his mother (widowed) Frances at 46 Goswell Road, and also on the 1881 census with his mother Frances, Sister Eliza and Sister Emma at 2 Banks Court. I am not suggesting that this is THE Joseph I am looking for as I really cant be sure it is.

I would be really grateful if someone could give me a shove in the right direction. I just dont know where to look for him to find his birth/baptism.

Hopefully!
Luish

1901 is this the correct man

Name: Joseph White
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: S Susanah
Gender: Male
Where born: St Luke

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke Old Street
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 245
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph White 27
S Susanah White 26



Quite often people put the place where they were living as place of birth


You might find that the birth was not registered



1891 just for info
Name: Joseph White
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Frances
Gender: Male
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Frances White 50 Reading, Berks
Joseph White 18

Hi,

I can't see them in 1871......... could this be Frances in 1861 though??

1861 England Census
about Francis White
Name: Francis White
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Reading, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: St Luke
Sub-registration district: Old Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 241
Household Members: Name Age
Francis White 25
Francis Sophia White 2


Stated as married.


Dee x

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1879 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kenning Emily Shoreditch 1c 316
>>>>>>>>>>>Rhind William John Shoreditch 1c 316
>>>>>>>>>>>>WHITE Frances Sophia Shoreditch 1c 316
Wiley Joseph Shoreditch 1c 316



The address interested me here;

1881 England Census
about Frances Rhind
Name: Frances Rhind
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William J.
Gender: Female
Where born: St Lukes, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 33 Galway St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Fur Sewer

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William J. Rhind 24
Frances Rhind 21
William G. Rhind


Could this be his sister???


Dee x

Thanks Glitter Baby and Dee for taking the time to look. I have all the census entries(!) and have just found the 1861 entry. They all look like they are connected, but without his birth/baptism, I really cant be 100% certain.

Because I can't find a marriage for a Joseph White and Frances (?), it makes me doubt further.

I may have been barking up the wrong tree there???

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William John Rhind
Name: William John Rhind
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Spouse Name: Francis Stephan Whiter
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 29 Dec 1879
Parish: Saint Mark, Shoreditch
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: George Mackey Rhind
Spouse Father Name: William Whiter >>>>>> Jeweller

Image states Frances Sophia White


Dee x

Dee - thanks, I have just read your latest post - I think this is very helpful. Because I have a connection to the Galway Street (one of the Addresses that Joseph lived at), it adds to the positive matches!

Assuming that these are all part and parcel of the same family, it seems very odd to me that I have been unable to find connections to births for Eliza and Emma (on the 1881 census) or Joseph (on both 1881 and 1891 census). Would I be correct in thinking that they would have to have been registered at birth somewhere by law?

I agree that Frances could have been Joseph' s sister and it now gives me something else to look for!

thanks again
Luisha

Hi Luisha,

Compulsary registration was firmly put into place until 1875, I think until that date it was left up to the registrar to track down births..... so many escaped, after 1875 parents were fined if they didn't register births.

I wonder why Frances Sophia stated William as her father? I agree the addresss does look very interesting in 1881...... I would hazard a guess that they were the same family too.


Dee x

Dee - I have just located the marriage certificate for Frances Sophia White and William John Rhind through Ancestry.co.uk. IT IS Frances Sophia White, but unfortunately her father was William White, so the father doesn't match.

Dee, my father-in-law is Alan Christopher by birth registration but on my marriage cert he is as Christopher Alan, because that is what his son always believed his name to be!

Joseph White (Junior b. 1901) son of Joseph b.1874 is Joseph William but again my father-in-law had no idea that he even had a middle name until I told him a couple of weeks ago!

There is of course always the possibility that Joseph was actually William Joseph, what do you think? Maybe that is why I am unable to find him?

Hi,

I wouldn't rule William White out yet, we really need to try and pinpoint a marriage for Emma and Eliza (needle and haystack come to mind.. LOL).

Like you say names are often switched around, and if the son is named after his father often the son has his middle name used to prevent any confusion........

I'll keep digging about, the 1871 census would be the best find.... fingers crossed.


Dee x

Dee, I really appreciate your efforts. Thanks heaps. If I don't get back to you immediately, it is because I am living overseas and four hours ahead of you!

I will check back though later. I have to take my daughter shopping!

once again thanks
Luisha

Hi Luisha,


Have a look on ancestry at this marriage, also look at the witnesses;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Emma White
Name: Emma White
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Spouse Name: William Wellman
Spouse Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 20 Sep 1885
Parish: Saint Thomas, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Joseph White Occupation Watch Maker
Spouse Father Name: William Wellman

Emma's address 18 King Street, Hackney Rd


This looks like them in 1891;

1891 England Census
about Emma Wellman
Name: Emma Wellman
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Clement
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 36 Galway Street!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Wellman 24 Occupation; BLACKSMITH!!! Did Joseph learn his trade from him???
Emma Wellman 23
Emily Wellman 5
William Wellman 4
Agnesa Wellman 2/12


Dee xx

Is this Galway Street a large area ????

1881 England Census
about William H. Wellmar
Name: William H. Wellmar
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Hoxton, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 24 Galway St
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Wellmar 37 >>>> Occupation Coach Smith (ties in with the marriage for Emma)
Jane Wellmar 36
William H. Wellmar 14
Emily Wellmar 12
George Wellmar 6
Helen Wellmar 4

All the other children born St Lukes

Now i haven't found a marriage for this Eliza, in 1874 Thomas Daniels married a Marttha Bland... his occupation was a skin dresser, so I'm thinking that this maybe our Eliza?? Need to find a marriage!!!


1891 England Census
about Eliza Daniels
Name: Eliza Daniels
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 17 Ironmonger Row

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Daniels 35 Occupation Fur Skin Dresser
Eliza Daniels 32
Thomas A Daniels 1
Mary Lyons 46 Lodger

I still can't see a marriage for Eliza.... maybe Thomas was still married to Martha Bland??

These look their children;

Thomas Alfred Daniels Baptism 26 Sep 1890 Thomas Daniels,
Eliza Daniels Saint Luke, Old Street Islington
Address 17 Ironmonger Row, Thomas's occ; Skin Dresser


John William Daniels Baptism 19 Jun 1891 Thomas Daniels,
Eliza Daniels Saint Luke, Old Street Islington
Address 17 Ironmonger Row, Thomas's occ; skin dresser

William Henry Daniels Baptism 10 Nov 1893 Thomas Daniels,
Eliza Susan Daniels Saint Luke, Old Street

Thomas's occ Skin Dresser, address is Murray St (image is poor)


So if this is our Eliza she has gained a middle name........ I can't for the life of me see any of them in 1901!!!!!!!!!

Dee x

My goodness Dee, you have worked extremely hard! Well I have to say, these look like extremely good matches from where I'm sitting!.

I looked at the marriage for Emma, and it was witnessed by Eliza White and also by a George Willard.

Looking at my 1897 map of London - Galway Street is certainly not that big. There does seem to be a lot of 'White activity' in this region though!

The Ironmonger Row for Eliza and Thomas also certainly fits, as Joseph lived at various numbers in Ironmonger Row!.

You have possibly unearthed as many questions as you have managed to solve!!!!!!!, but at least it gives something else to look at.

Bye-the-way, what is a skin dresser - do you know?

thanks again
Luisha
x

Hi Dee,

I have also found a census entry in 1891 for the Rhind family (frances Sophia White) and guess where they were living........ Rahere Street, which is where Francis (mother) and Francis Sophia were living in 1861.

I am almost sure that this is the same Francis who is mother to Eliza, Emma, and Joseph because of the various locations in and around city road, st lukes.

Luisha

Have also found Frances and William in 1901 at Bartholomew Buildings. Interestingly, Frances is the Head at this time and William is listed as 'Lunatic'?

Dee, on the marriage entry for Emma White to William Wellman, she by 'profession' is a fur sewer, coincidentally, on the census entries for Frances Rhind nee White, she is also a Fur Sewer!

Luisha