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trying to find parents of james young born 1870 5 abbey close jedburgh on his marriage cert it says his parents are james young ships carpenter and agnes reid both are deceased when he marrys in 1899

1881 census says james aged 12 was lodger think this is same one

please if you can help let me know

sharon

Top of the list of search results for 1871:


Name: James Young
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relationship: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
Registration Number: 792/1
Registration district: Jedburgh Burgh
Civil Parish: Jedburgh
County: Roxburghshire
Address: 5 Abbey Close
ED: 2
Page: 2 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 9/a
Line: 11
Roll: CSSCT1871_179
Household Members:
Name Age
James Young 2
Jane Young 60
John Young 17


That's certainly him, but unfortunately no parents in evidence.

With his grandmother's name, his father could perhaps be found in her household in previous censuses ...

The grandmother's info from 1871:

Name: Jane Young
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire

And John would be younger brother of James:

Name: John Young
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
Occupation: Appr Tailor

Aha, it gets messy in 1861.


Name: John Scott
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire

Name: Jane Yancy
(I would bit a fair bit that's "Young" mistranscribed)
Age: 50
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire

Name: James Young
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Morebattle, Roxburghshire
>> Occupation: Journeyman Saila

Registration Number: 792
Registration district: Jedburgh
Civil Parish: Jedburgh
County: Roxburghshire
>> Address: Abbay Blasa No 5 Lans
ED: 6
Page: 10
Household schedule number: 49
Line: 19
Roll: CSSCT1861_140

Household Members:
John Scott 7 - son of Jane
William Scott 26 - son of Jane
Jane Yancy 50
Agnes Young 16 - daughter of Jane
Isabella Young 18 - daughter of Jane
James Young 20 - son of Jane
Jane Young 10 - daughter of Jane
Thomas Young 18 - son of Jane


Too bad those images aren't available to refer to - but I think you can access them for a fee at scotlandspeople.

Does one suspect that Agnes, daughter of Jane, is really wife of James?

Have you checked at scotlandspeople for a marriage? It might have been earlier than you'd have thought.

Looks like James Sr. in 1851:

-- edit 30 Dec 2007 -- "James Sr" here is really Agnes Young's brother. It could be his details that young James was using for his father, the actually non-existent "James Young" he named as his father on his marriage certificate, though.


Name: James Young
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relationship: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Morbattle, Roxburghshire
Occupation: Scholar

Parish Number: 792
Civil Parish: Jedburgh
Town: Jedburgh
County: Roxburghshire
Address: No 19
ED: 1
Page: 34
Household schedule number: 141
Line: 6
Roll: CSSCT1851_202

William Scott 18 - son of Jane and William, it says
Agnes Young 4 -- oops, no, there's a sister Agnes after all
Isabilla Young 7
James Young 9
Jane Young 39
Jane Young 2 Mo
Thomas Young 2
William Young 39

Looks like probably your best bet for Agnes in 1851:

-- edit 30 Dec 2007 -- this is a red herring. I'm leaving it here just so I don't confuse you by deleting it! This is not your Agnes and has nothing to do with her.


Name: Agnes Reid
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Helen
Gender: Female
Where born: Paisley Newtown, Renfrewshire
Occupation: Scholar

Parish Number: 792
Civil Parish: Jedburgh
County: Roxburghshire
Address: 71 Canongate
ED: 5
Page: 29
Household schedule number: 135
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1851_202

Agnes Reid 8
Alexander Reid 10
George Reid 11
Helen Reid 30
John Reid 37
John Mc J Reid 3

I had a few spare credits on scotlandspeople and have made a discovery!

James Young was born illegitimate to Agnes Young at 4.30 am on 12th April 1869. Address is 5 Abbey Close, Jedburgh. Agnes was a domestic servant.

If you'd like the image, pm me your email address.

Regards
Lewella

Aha.

Agnes Young 16 - daughter of Jane, in 1861.

The James Young named on her son James's marriage certificate sounds like her brother, by name and trade.

Or is it still possible that the Agnes in 1861 was the wife of James Young, and was a widow when the 1869 James was born, making him illegitimate, with the surname of his mother's deceased husband?

Given the address of that household I was following around up there, that has to be the family, one way or another.

Doesn't really jibe with the 1881 household in Lancashire ...

Found your thread, Sharon, by searching the board for Agnes Young ...

You ask (and I must point out that Lewella is a star too!):


"I cant find that info anywhere so james was the illegitimate child of agnes young what year was she born? cant make it out. Did he turn out to be an only child? did his mum remarry another james im only asking cos you seem to have made more progress than i have ever done if there is the slightest chance I could help you with anything please let me know"


I just cross my fingers I never do need anything Scottish, myself! Let me have a look here now ...

Lewella tells us:


James Young was born illegitimate to Agnes Young at 4.30 am on 12th April 1869. Address is 5 Abbey Close, Jedburgh. Agnes was a domestic servant.


I think we can ignore most of the muddling around that I did before Lew came up with that.

Agnes in 1861 -- I'm pretty sure that the "Yancy", which has been added because that is supposedly her mother's name, is just a misreading of Jane Young's name:


Name: Agnes Young
[Agnes Yancy]
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relationship: Daughter
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Female
Where born: Morebattle, Roxburghshire
Registration Number: 792
Registration district: Jedburgh
Civil Parish: Jedburgh
County: Roxburghshire

Address: Abbay Blasa No 5 Lans
Occupation: Domestic Servant

ED: 6
Page: 10 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 49
Line: 16
Roll: CSSCT1861_140

Household Members:
Name Age
John Scott 7
William Scott 26
Jane Yancy 50
Agnes Young 16
Isabella Young 18
James Young 20
Jane Young 10
Thomas Young 18


William Scott, 26, and John Scott, 7, are both said to be sons of Jane. That seems rather odd.

My guess would be that William Scott is Jane Young's son by a previous marriage, and John Scott is his son.

James Young, 20, is a "Journeyman Saila".

con'td ...

Here's his birth

JAMES YOUNG Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
12 APR 1869 Jedburgh, Roxburgh, Scotland
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Mother: AGNES YOUNG

No mention of a father.

This is the household in the previous census, 1851:


Name: Agnes Young
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Female
Where born: Morbattle, Roxburghshire
Parish Number: 792
Civil Parish: Jedburgh
Town: Jedburgh
County: Roxburghshire

Address: No 19
Occupation: Scholar

ED: 1
Page: 34 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 141
Line: 8
Roll: CSSCT1851_202

Household Members:
Name Age
William Scott 18
Agnes Young 4
Isabilla Young 7
James Young 9
Jane Young 39
Jane Young 2 Mo
Thomas Young 2
William Young 39


So Agnes was the daughter of William Young and Jane, and when she had her son James Young in April 1869 she was unmarried.


This is Agnes's son James in 1871, with his grandmother:


Name: James Young
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relationship: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
Registration Number: 792/1
Registration district: Jedburgh Burgh
Civil Parish: Jedburgh
County: Roxburghshire

Address: 5 Abbey Close

ED: 2
Page: 2 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 9/a
Line: 11
Roll: CSSCT1871_179

Household Members:
Name Age
James Young 2
Jane Young 60
John Young 17


cont'd

Hi alviegal -- as you see, Lewella found the record of James's birth at scotlandspeople and it specifies "illegitimate", I gather. I'm not sure whether Sharon took Lew up on her offer to send the image -- I just got a PM from Sharon, which is why I'm back mucking around here ;) ... once I figured out what the heck the PM was about ...

Hang on now -- Sharon started out at the very beginning saying:


"trying to find parents of james young born 1870 5 abbey close jedburgh on his marriage cert it says his parents are james young ships carpenter and agnes reid both are deceased when he marrys in 1899"


Now, we've certainly got the right household -- 5 Abbey Close is the address in those censuses.

But is it possible that the Agnes Reid I found was *not* a red herring? Is it possible that Sharon's James Young actually was the child of the James Young, son of Jane and William, and an Agnes Reid?

How about the possibility that he was illegitimate, but born to Agnes as James Reid?

Why would James have named Agnes Reid, whoever she was, as his mother on his marriage certificate?

Maybe because he really was making the whole thing up -- making up a married couple as his parents, so he had to have a surname for his mother Agnes, other than Young ...


editing ... nonono -- the address on that birth record is 5 Abbey Close, the consistent address throughout the censuses for the family of Agnes Young, unmarried daughter of Jane -- so that is obviously definitely our James's birth.

In 1881, 5 Abbey Close is occupied by:

Annie H Dawson 30
Robert Dawson 35


so no help there.

Can you remind me what this 1881 household in Lancashire is that I referred to for some reason way up at the top?

thanks kathryn lew and alviegal this is so much help that was so badly needed its just a shame my grandad isnt here to see it all but it means so much to me thank you all

kathryn i think by 1881 my gt grandad james had moved up to edinburgh i could be wrong

If the 1881 household in which James was lodger in 1881 is this one:


Name: James Young
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relationship: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
Registration Number: 776B
Registration district: Ladhope
Civil Parish: Melrose
Town: Galashiels
County: Selkirkshire

Address: 124 Magdala Terrace
Occupation: Scholar

ED: 8
Page: 19 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 101
Line: 11
Roll: cssct1881_314

Household Members:
Name Age
John Young 23
Isabella Young 24
James Young 12
Janet Young 23
Mary Young 4
Thomas Young 3 Mo
William Young 2


-- head of household is John Young, wife Isabella. Janet Young is also a lodger, the others are John's children.

That John and Janet don't match up with anyone in the 5 Abbey Close household in 1861 / 1871.

(Although the John Scott aged 7 in the 1861 household seems to be the John Young aged 17 in the 1871 household.)


I'm afraid I just feel like I'm not going to get any farther with this.

No father was named on James's birth record, his mother was Agnes Young. It seems that he invented the names of his parents for the purpose of his marriage. That's the best I can surmise!

My gr-grfather and his sister certainly invented a father when they married (a name composed of the given name of the man who was registered as their father and the surname they had decided to adopt as young adults, which *might* be the surname of their actual father). Not at all unusual for someone born outside marriage to make up a father when s/he married!