Genealogy Chat

Thought this was going to be an interesting tangled relationship for the William, brother in 1911, but it actually says Fellow Servant
1901 England Census
William Hales Age: 23 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Father-in-Law
Gender: Male Where born: Hodnet, Shropshire, England
Civil parish: Tarporley Ecclesiastical parish: Tarporley
Town: Tarporley County/Island: Cheshire
Registration district: Chester Sub-registration district: Tattenhall
ED, institution, or vessel: 10 Household schedule number: 185
Piece: 3367 Folio: 36 Page Number: 29
Harry Pye 24
William Hales 23
Frank Denver 26
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3367; Folio: 36; Page: 29.

Are we still looking for his first wife?

1891 Wales Census
Philip Henry Hales
Age: 20 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Son Father's Name: George Hales
Gender: Male Where born: Ellesmere, Shropshire, England
Civil parish: Overton Ecclesiastical parish: Overton Town: Overton County/Island: Flintshire Country: Wales
Registration district: Ellesmere Sub-registration district: Overton
ED, institution, or vessel: 3 Piece: 2119 Folio: 23 Page Number: 8
George Hales 68
Ellen Hales 32
Emily R Hales 25
Louisa C Hales 24
Charlotte J Hales 22
Philip Henry Hales 20
Walter Hales 70
William Jones 16
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2119; Folio 23; Page 8; GSU roll: 6097229.

Have you got the birth certificate so you know actual date of birth?
Wales shows with England for deaths, Scotland does not.
Have you found any indication that he would have left England?
What did your Mother tell you about him?

I am still having problems finding Philip Henry Hales death and also a marriage for him before the marriage in 1908, where he is listed as a widower. Could it be that he married and or died in Wales or Scotland and there is a different place to look for those records?

Thank you so much for the help so far. What I am really having difficulties with is finding Philip Henry Hales after about 1927 as he just seems to have dissapeared. I know that he worked with horses as when he married he was listed on the marriage certificate as a trainer. On my mothers birth certificate in 1920 he was listed on there as a groom. I have looked on the trees for him that other people have on here and there is only one person who actually has him listed on their tree, but unfortunately so far they have not responded back to my messages to them.
Again thank you for all your help and if anyone has any other ideas on where to look I would really appriciate it.

and in 1881 (Henery is most likely Philip H):

HALES, George Head Married M 50 1831 Farmer 100 Acres Wem Shropshire
HALES, Margaret B Wife Married F 45 1836 Chester Cheshire
HALES, Ellen Daughter Single F 22 1859 Farmers Daughter Whitchurch Shropshire
HALES, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 21 1860 Farmers Daughter Ellesmere Shropshire
HALES, Alice Daughter Single F 18 1863 Farmers Daughter Ellesmere Shropshire
HALES, George Son Single M 16 1865 Aprentice Draper Ellesmere Shropshire
HALES, Emily Daughter Single F 14 1867 Ellesmere Shropshire
HALES, Loeisa Daughter Single F 13 1868 Scholar Ellesmere Shropshire
HALES, Charlotte Daughter Single F 11 1870 Scholar Ellesmere Shropshire
HALES, Williams Son Single M 10 1871 Scholar Ellesmere Shropshire
>>HALES, Henery Son Single M 9 1872 Scholar Ellesmere Shropshire
HALES, Charles Son Single M 6 1875 Shawbury Shropshire
JONES, Anne Servant Single F 13 1868 General Servt Overton Flintshire Wales
BLANTERN, Mary Visitor Widow F 70 1811 Malpas Cheshire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registration District: Ellesmere
Civil Parish: Ellesmere

Address: Gadlas, Ellesmere County: Shropshire

Strongly suspect this is his family in 1871:

HALES, George Head M 40 1831 Shropshire - Farmer 288 acres, born Wem
HALES, Margart Wife F 35 1836 Cheshire - born Malpas
HALES, Ellen Daughter F 13 1858 Shropshire
HALES, Elizabeth Daughter F 11 1860 Shropshire
HALES, Alice Daughter F 9 1862 Shropshire
HALES, George Moore Son M 7 1864 Shropshire
HALES, Emily Daughter F 5 1866 Shropshire
HALES, Louise Daughter F 4 1867 Shropshire
HALES, Charlotte Daughter F 3 1868 Shropshire
HALES, William Son M 2 1869 Shropshire
>>HALES, Philip H Son M 0 1871 Shropshire - age 3 months, born Shawbury
PERREY, Mary Ann Servant F 18 1853 Shropshire
EVANS, Frances Servant F 20 1851 Shropshire
MARTIN, Martha Servant F 15 1856 Shropshire
BOWERN, Elizabeth Servant F 15 1856 Shropshire
TAYLOR, Edward Servant M 16 1855 Shropshire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registration District: Wem
Civil Parish: Shawbury

Address: Farm House, Shawbury County: Shropshire

Here is Phillip Hnery's baptism, from the beta.familysearch site


He was baptised in 1871, but this does not mean that he was necessarily born in 1871


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 for Phillip Henry Hales

Name: Phillip Henry Hales
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 02 Mar 1871
Baptism/Christening Place: SHAWBURY,SHROPSHIRE,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: George Hales
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Margaret Blanche
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05390-3
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 918792
Reference Number:



his birth registration on freebmd is in the March quarter 1871 .......... but again he could ahve been born late in 1869, as mothers had 6 weeks in which to register a birth


Births Mar 1871 (>99%)

Hales Philip Henry Wem 6a 789



If you have not already done so ..... you should buy this certificate, that will solve the problem of his actual birth date!



It will cost you £9.25





sylvia

Philip did have a brother called William. I believe his middle name was Pitt.

This is where I get so confused as Philip Henry Hales records seem to indicate that he was born in 1871. However on his marriage certificate that I have it says he was 40 in 1908, which would mean he was born in 1868. On my mothers birth certificate is says fathers name was Henry Hales a groom. So this could indeed be the same person. I know that sometimes records can be a year or so off. Really appriciate this help, and if there is anything else you can help with I would be so grateful. I don't suppose you have found a death record for him too? :)

At the moment not sure about that 1911 as can not find Philip having a brother William - well not on 1891 census at least

??
1911
HALES, Henry Head Married M 43 1868 Stud Groom And Trainer Gloucestershire Sandford VIEW
HALES, William Brother Married
1 years M 31 1880 Groom With Above Salop Hodnet VIEW
HALES, Annie Sister In Law Married
1 years F 22 1889 Beds Hockliff VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
8970 Reference:
RG14PN8970 RG78PN474 RD177 SD1 ED13 SN33

Registration District:
Leighton Buzzard Sub District:
Leighton Buzzard Enumeration District:
13 Parish:
Linslade

Address:
20 Mentmore Road Linslade Leighton Buzzard

I came across that record too, but then found a Philip Henry Hales who moved to Syracuse NY where he later passed away after raising a family.
Gertrude was on the 1911 census records at her parents pub in Hemel Hempstead, but have been unable to find Philip Henry anywhere for that census.

1911 ?
KIRBY, William Warlin Head Married M 46 1865 Licensed Victualler London Not Sure VIEW
KIRBY, Bessie Maria Ellen Wife Married
24 years F 38 1873 Wimbledon Surrey VIEW
HALES, Gertrude Lilian Daughter Married F 21 1890 Bromley Kent VIEW
KIRBY, Thomas William Martin Son Single M 16 1895 Engineer - General West Wickham Kent VIEW
KIRBY, Percy Edward Son Single M 12 1899 At School Chilmington Kent VIEW
KIRBY, Frank Sporle Son Single M 11 1900 At School Pipe Sussex VIEW
KIRBY, Frederick Stanley Son Single M 5 1906 At School Leighton Beygard Beds VIEW
KIRBY, Bessie Hilda Pearl Daughter Single F 2 1909 Leighton Beygard Beds VIEW
LAWRENCE, Mary Servant Single F 35 1876 General Servant London Colney Herts VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
7740 Reference:
RG14PN7740 RG78PN383 RD141 SD1 ED1 SN52

Registration District:
Hemel Hempstead Sub District:
Hemel Hempstead Enumeration District:
1 Parish:
Hemel Hempstead

Address:
Rose and Crown High Street Hemel Hempstead

Could there be more than one with similar name and birth details?

1910 United States Federal Census

Name: Philip H Hales
Age in 1910: 38
Estimated Birth Year: 1872
Birthplace: England
Relation to Head of House: Head
[Self (Head)]
Father's Birth Place: England
Mother's Birth Place: England
Spouse's Name: Sarah S Hales
Home in 1910: Syracuse Ward 10, Onondaga, New York
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Male
Year of immigration: 1907
Household Members:
Name Age
Philip H Hales 38
Sarah S Hales 24
Henry T Hales 1
Linda P Hales 1

EDIT: Reckon this has to be a coincidence because he married Gertrude Lilian in 1908.

The US ones are still there in 1920.

Is this why he's not on the 1911 UK census?

New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957

Name: Philipp Henry Hales
Arrival Date: 21 Apr 1906
Birth Year: abt 1872
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/Race-
/Nationality: English
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Caronia

Very faint writing, but it looks like he's a farmer and headed to the Trade Society in Syracuse.

Philip Henry Hales married Gertrude Lilian Kirby in Leighton Buzzard on 10th October 1908.

??
Marriages Sep 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GURNEY Maud Leighton B. 3b 887
HALES Philip Henry Leighton B. 3b 887

Names missing from entry


Name: Gertrude L Hales
Birth Date: abt 1891
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1951
Age at Death: 60
Registration district: Surrey South Western
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5g
Page: 1286

That is correct. I know, its very strange that they waited so long before having kids and then had 4. The first 2 born in 1920 were twins. I cannot find any records of his first marriage either, and there was talk of another son called Bernard, but he remains a mystery too. I am guessing Bernard was maybe born to the first wife, but thats only a guess on my part.

Margaret - could I check those dates?

They married in 1908 but didn't have children until 1920/27? (Or am I reading it wrong?)