Genealogy Chat

Thanks Potty
Yes quite odd that there are two records.
He was born 14th June 1896.

Hi Rootgatherer
Amelia France is on my grandfathers birth certificate and is his mother.
No idea why they didn't marry until 1915 - baffled me as well.
Up until then they'd obviously pretended to be married.
Maybe to disguise children born out of wedlock - don't think either were married before.

Mary
No I can't find Albert Alexanders birth either.
I don't know what's going on with this family!!
Nothing on his military records about his family except address at 22 Cleveland St.

SylvainCanada
Marriage is in 1915 to Amelia Turton a bit of a mystery why they waited.
I've got WGH birth certificate and Amelia France is down as his mother.
Obviously back at No 22 with his parents in 1920.
Yes he was down as a butcher on his military records which was news to me.
He did work in the family undertaking business for a while but didn't like it.
He also was a driver for Bourne & Hollingsworth.
YEs he was and he was the sole beneficiary of his fathers will but decided to share it equally with his two brothers.
Charles was a nice guy but Albert wasn't.
No idea why he wasn't acknowledged just know he spent his early years away at Thaxted in Essex.
Perhaps he was with someone from his mothers family.

Hello Jack and welcome to the Community Boards.





(I'll let Jack know how to find his replies) :-)

Havent found Albert, but Charles Ernest has the same sort of rev as Willam. He is shown twice in 1898 and one entry has Mar 53. Sorry can't post as don't know how to C&P on a tablet

Can you see Albert Alexander France birth?
Death 1973 states birth 22/8/1900 London.

I can't seem to find military records on Ancestry for W G H France,does it mention parents and siblings on those you have found?

Maryb

Cremation Register summary
France William George
Cremation date 31 July 1952
Authority Kensal Green
Location West London Crematorium (Kensington and Chelsea)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

(from above link)

Chris :)

Think that June 1896 registration should say March 53

Birth was registered very late:

Births Mar 1953
FRANCE William G H TURTON Westminster 5c 402

Perhaps he needed his birth certificate but didn't see the Sept registration?

Rose

This looks like father WG with his parents in 1881 ..............


1881 Census

Name: Henry W. France
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Kate France
Gender: Male
Where born: Westminster, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 46 Judd St
Marital Status: Married

Occupation: Undertaker
Registration district: Pancras
Sub registration district: Grays Inn Lane
ED, institution, or vessel: 3a

Piece: 191
Folio: 27
Page Number: 47

Henry W. France 44
Kate France 24
Henry J. France 20
Clara A. France 18
Helen V. France 15
Charles E. France 13
Matilda E. France 9
>>>>>>William G. France 6
Hetty C. F. France 2
John Martin 15 Servant


Father's full name from other sources is Henry William France



and Henry William in 1901 .......... with a new wife, but no WGH

1901 Census

Name: Henry W France
[Henry William France]
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Hetty France
Birth Place: Westminster
[Elgland]
[Middlesex]
Civil Parish: St James
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Westminster
Sub-registration district: St James, Westminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 8b

Piece: 98
Folio: 100
Page Number: 5
Household schedule number: 602

Henry W France 61 Undertaker
Hetty France 38
Claude France 7
Clara Bowdrey 37 daughter
Ida Bowdrey 7 granddaughter




If Harriet Amelia was the daughter of a Richard Turton, as the only record I found could indicate ................ then WGH was not with that family either in 1901

I don't know whether you have this .............

Probate record for his father names WGH as one of the Administrators



England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966 about William George France

Name: William George France
Probate Date: 1 Apr 1953
Death Date: 27 Jul 1952
Death Place: London, England
Registry: London, England


From image:-

France, William George, of 22 Cleveland Street, St Pancras, London, died 27 July 1952 at The Middlesex Hospital, Mortimer Street, London, W1. Administration [granted] London 1 April 1953 to William George Henry France, Stores Clerk, and Charles Ernest France, Funeral Director.
Effects £4545 7s 10d

It's almost as though WGH was not acknowledged by either parent when he was young, but then he was after a certain date.


He may have been a nurse child, living with relatives, at school, or in an institution ...........



but what made them then accept him into the family?



and mixed in with this, is why did William George and Harriet Amelia not marry until 1915?

That usually doesn't happen unless one or both are already married, and have to wait for the other partner(s) to die.



It might be educational to get their marriage certificate to see if it says anything about their marital status in 1915

I don't know whether you have this .............

Probate record for his father names WGH as one of the Administrators



England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966 about William George France

Name: William George France
Probate Date: 1 Apr 1953
Death Date: 27 Jul 1952
Death Place: London, England
Registry: London, England


From image:-

France, William George, of 22 Cleveland Street, St Pancras, London, died 27 July 1952 at The Middlesex Hospital, Mortimer Street, London, W1. Administration [granted] London 1 April 1953 to William George Henry France, Stores Clerk, and Charles Ernest France, Funeral Director.
Effects £4545 7s 10d

According to his service record ............ he was a Butcher ??????????/

This looks like him on the 1920 Electoral Registaer



London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 about William George Henry France

Name: William George Henry France
Year: 1920
County or Borough: Camden
Ward or Division/Constituency: St Pancras

Address:- 22 Cleveland St


Also living there (of voting age)

Harriet Amelia France
William George France (senr)

Have you bought his birth certificate?

If so, who does it name as his mother?


If not, it might help.

1901 Census

Name Age
William France 26 b.ca 1875, St James, London
Harriett France 26 b.ca 1875, St Pancras, London
Charles France 3 b.ca 1898, St James, London
William Turton 20 b.ca 1881, St James, London, Boarder
Mary Mantry 40 Servant

Address:- 26 Cleveland St



The following two are also listed on ancestry record a living with the Frances, but in fact live next door at No. 24

William Vinaup 30 Boarder
Walter Schomman 26 Boarder

Is this the marriage that you found for his parents??


Marriages Dec 1915 (>99%)

France William G Turton Marylebone 1a 1911
Turton Harriet A France Marylebone 1a 1911

According to the 1911 census, Harriet has been married 16 years, 2 children born and 2 living. So it's a bit odd that she has 2 children with her. Had she forgotten about William, her firstborn?

Do you have William's birth certificate please? Does it state that Harriet is his mother? Just wondering why his parents didn't marry until 1915 if they were both free to marry.

His birth seems to be in the index twice:

Births Jun 1896 (>99%)
France William G H Westminster 1a _____ Scan available - click to view

Births Sep 1896 (>99%)
France William George H Westminster 1a 495

It is the June entry that is handwritten - possibly it was a late registration; usually the reference would be to the month and year that the birth should have been registered. It could read Mch/55, which seem to indicate 1855 - obviously not, though, given his Army record (the x refers to the next handwritten entry, not his).

His family in 1911:

William George France Head Married Male 34 1877 London Undertaker
Harriet Amelia France Wife Married Female 34 1877 London -
Charles Ernest France Son - Male 13 1898 London School
Albert Alexander France Son - Male 11 1900 London School
Annie Boyton Visitor Widow Female 54 1857 Hereford Wellington

Address 22 Cleveland St
Parish St Pancras
County London
Registration district St Pancras
Registration district number 9
Subdistrict South St Pancras
Subdistrict number 2
Enumeration district 4
Piece number 687
Schedule number 546
Census reference RG14PN687 RG78PN24 RD9 SD2 ED4 SN546
Record set 1911 Census for England & Wales

Just for reference:

According to Military records he was living at 22 Cleveland Street. Fitzroy Square, London in 1914

Just as a side note- I think Cleveland Street was where Charles Dickens grew up

Birth?
William George H France
Registration Year: 1896
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Westminster
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 495

His birth reg has been handwritten in

seems to be Westminster 1a McL/55x ( though it could be HcL ?)