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Zoe
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17 Feb 2015 23:44 |
I think I might have gone horribly wrong somewhere but can't work out where :-S William Howard married an Ann, not sure of 2nd name or when. (Hang on; it does get better.. I promise!) Ann born c1799 in Northwich & had 5 children ~ William John Sarah Ann James Edwin Victor Howard (1845) They lived in Toxteth Park for some of the time. I can find Ann and children in 1841 & 1851 censuses but then in 1861 Edwin and Sarah Ann are living with their uncle, Isaac born 1810. I found Isaac Howard born in Runcorn 1810, who had a brother William born 1803. However I can't find William on any of the censuses, living with his family or not. He was listed on Edwin's marriage certificate (1867) as an engineer and on John's marriage certificate in 1884 he is listed as an engineer, deceased.. Can anyone help me see where he went?! I've been looking at a lot of different trees and genealogy sites but they all contradict one another :-(
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Zoe
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17 Feb 2015 23:58 |
And I realise now, that I think i posted this in the wrong forum :-| It's supposed to be in "Finding Ancestors"
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SylviaInCanada
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18 Feb 2015 03:55 |
that's OK ..... we can help on here, unless you have already re-posted on Finding Ancestors?
If you have ......... please delete this one
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SylviaInCanada
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18 Feb 2015 04:05 |
for our information ........................ I assume this is the 1851 Census??
1851 Census
Name: Ann Howard Age: 52 Estimated birth year: abt 1799 Relation: Head Gender: Female Where born: Northwich Civil Parish: Toxteth Park Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Baptist Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps: View related Ecclesiastical Parish County/Island: Lancashire Country: England
Registration district: West Derby Sub-registration district: Toxteth Park ED, institution, or vessel: 1al
Household schedule number: 62 Piece: 2187 Folio: 540 Page Number: 14
Ann Howard 52 William Howard 15 b.ca 1836, Runcorn, Cheshire, Apprentice Carpenter Sarah N Howard 9 b.ca 1842, Runcorn, Scholar John Howard 13 b.ca 1838, Liverpool, Cheshire (!!!! -- that's what it says!!!), Scholar James Howard 8 b.ca 1843, Runcorn, Scholar Edwin Howard 5 b.ca 1846, Liverpool, Lancashire, Scholar
Address:- Hughes Street 3, Court 5
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SylviaInCanada
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18 Feb 2015 04:14 |
do you have this???
from ancestry ...........
Liverpool, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Edwin Victor Howard Birth Date: 4 Sep 1845 Baptism Date: 30 Jan 1898 Parish: Toxteth, St Clement Father's name: William Howard Mother's name: Ann Howard Reference Number: 283 CLE/2/7
from image
Baptised as an ADULT
Born:- 4/9/45 Address:- 17 Solway Street Occupation:- Mariner
no occupation, or any other information, given for William and Ann
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SylviaInCanada
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18 Feb 2015 04:23 |
I did notice that on the 1851 Census, in the column for married, single etc ................. it did NOT say either Mar, S or W .................. it seemed to be a U
indicating ?????unknown?
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SylviaInCanada
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18 Feb 2015 04:36 |
I note that several Public Trees on ancestry have decided that William Howard was married to Ann Ball ..............
this seems to be the basis for their belief ...............
Liverpool, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921
Name: William Howard Marriage Date: 26 Dec 1825 Parish: Liverpool, St Nicholas Spouse's Name: Ann Ball Reference Number: 283 NIC/3/13
from the image .................
William is a Labourer
Labourer does not, to me, seem to fit later descriptions of him as an Engineer
But also .......... William born ca 1836 appears to be the eldest child .................. and a marriage in 1825 is very early for the first child to be born about 11 years later
Everything and anything is possible, BUT .................
I think someone found a convenient marriage, added it to their tree, and others have copied it, willy-nilly, without checking!
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SylviaInCanada
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18 Feb 2015 05:07 |
The 1851 Census shows that Sarah N Howard was said to be born in Runcorn
Looking at the image, I think that her middle initial might actually be "A" ............. it is unlike the initial letter A of her mother's name, but very similar to the A for Ann about 8 lines up the page, and to the A of Ap. Carpenter for her brother William
Going to Cheshire bmds ....
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
I find the following registrations for a Sarah Howard in Runcorn during the years 1840-1845
Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1840 to 1845 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HOWARD Sarah Ann Runcorn Halton PRICHARD RUN/4/68
HOWARD Sarah Runcorn Halton BUSHEL RUN/4/38
IF we take it to be Sarah Ann Howard .................... then that first registration appears as if it COULD be hers, and her mother's maiden name is indicated as Prichard
HOWEVER ......................
familysearch has a William Howard married an Elizabeth Pritchard in Runcorn in 1840
mentioned in the record of William Howard and Elizabeth Pritchard
Name: William Howard Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Pritchard Event Date: 1840 Event Place: Runcorn Parish Father's Name: George Howard Spouse's Father's Name: Thomas Pritchard Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M75105-0 , System Origin: England-VR , GS Film number: 1836130 , Reference ID: 2:3PTQTTM
and a Sarah A Howard appears on the 1861 Census living in Runcorn with father William, Linen and Woollen Draper, and mother Elizabeth
so ........ probably NOT yours!
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Zoe
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18 Feb 2015 08:46 |
Thank you for answering.. I've been going round in circles with this! I wasn't sure about the marriage to Anne Ball because it seemed a bit too early for the children's births as you've said... I have found christening records for the children all listing an ann and a William as parents.. In 1861 I found Edwin and Sarah ann living with their uncle, Isaac Howard.. It has Sarah ann listed as married with the name of either Wells or Wills but I couldn't find a marriage for her?
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Zoe
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18 Feb 2015 08:49 |
Births of children which I found on christening indexes.. William 1834 John 1836 Sarah 1840 James 1843 Edwin victor 1845 There was another Sarah Ann born in Runcorn in 1842 but I think it said her parents were Elizabeth and William
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Zoe
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18 Feb 2015 09:14 |
I traced Isaac to see if I could find anything on William.. Born in Runcorn 1810.. That's how I came to believe William was born in Runcorn in 1803 to a john Howard and an Ann, possibly shaw, according to some trees but some also contradict this
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Jacqueline
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18 Feb 2015 10:09 |
Did any of the children born after 1837 have their births registered?
Please post the 1841 for our info
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Jacqueline
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18 Feb 2015 10:19 |
FMP's version of 1851
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription Hughes Street 3 Court, Toxteth Park Extra Parochial, West Derby, Lancashire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place Ann Howard Head Widow Female 52 1799 - Northwich, Cheshire, England Transcription William Howard Son - Male 15 1836 Ap Carpenter Runcorn, Cheshire, England Transcription Sarah T Howard Daughter - Female 9 1842 Scholar Runcorn, Cheshire, England Transcription John Howard Son - Male 13 1838 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England Transcription James Howard Son - Male 8 1843 Scholar Runcorn, Cheshire, England Transcription Edwin Howard Son Unmarried Male 5 1846 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Sarah's second initial is not a 'T' when one looks at the image
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rootgatherer
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18 Feb 2015 10:24 |
Is this the same family in 1841 please?
Ann Howard Age: 35 Estimated birth year: abt 1806 Gender: Female Where born: Cheshire, England Civil Parish: Runcorn Hundred: Bucklow County/Island: Cheshire Country: England Street address:
Occupation:
View image Registration district: Runcorn Sub-registration district: Runcorn Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 95 Book: 20 Folio: 7 Page Number: 8 Household Members: Name Age Ann Howard 35 William Howard 7 John Howard 5 Sarah Howard 2
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Jacqueline
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18 Feb 2015 10:28 |
For our info, the 1861 referred to above
1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription 6, Marshall Street, Toxteth Park, West Derby, Lancashire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place Isaac Haward Head Married Male 50 1811 Mariner Chester, Cheshire, England Transcription Mary Haward Wife Married Female 49 1812 - Chester, Cheshire, England Transcription Louisa Haward Daughter Unmarried Female 16 1845 Scholar Chester, Cheshire, England Transcription William Haward Son - Male 13 1848 Scholar Chester, Cheshire, England Transcription George Haward Son - Male 8 1853 Scholar Cheshire, England Transcription Elizabeth Jones Daughter Married Female 24 1837 Mariners Wife Cheshire, England Transcription Mary Elizth Jones Granddaughter - Female 5 1856 Scholar Ellesmere, Cheshire, England Transcription Sarah Ann Wells Niece Married Female 21 1840 Marines Wife Ellesmere, Cheshire, England Transcription Edwin Howard Nephew Unmarried Male 14 1847 Mariner Chester, Cheshire, England
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Jacqueline
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18 Feb 2015 10:36 |
Isaac's marriage - unfortunately too early to be of any use
Name: Isaac Howard Spouse's Name: Mary Nield Event Date: 1835 Event Place: Runcorn Parish, Chester Co. Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M75104-4 ,
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Jacqueline
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18 Feb 2015 10:45 |
Name: Isaac Howard Event Type: Christening Event Date: 15 Apr 1810 Event Place: All Saints, Runcorn, Cheshire, England Gender: Male Birth Date: 26 Mar 1810 Father's Name: John Howard Mother's Name: Ann
Name: William Howard Event Type: Christening Event Date: 05 Mar 1805 Event Place: All Saints, Runcorn, Cheshire, England Gender: Male Birth Date: 20 Mar 1803 Father's Name: John Howard Mother's Name: Ann
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Zoe
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18 Feb 2015 14:53 |
Yes they are the census records that I have found.. sorry it has taken me a while to reply! As you can see, I just can't find William on any of these records.. I wondered if Ann might have died between 1851 & 1861 and that is why the family is suddenly split up.
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Zoe
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18 Feb 2015 14:55 |
Can anyone find a record for Sarah Ann marrying and becoming Sarah Ann Wells? I can't seem to find anything?
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Jacqueline
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18 Feb 2015 15:09 |
Deaths Jun 1854 (>99%) Howard Ann W Derby 8b 263 Howard Ann W Derby 8b 257
Deaths Jun 1855 (>99%) Howard Ann W Derby 8b 299
Deaths Sep 1857 (>99%) Howard Ann W Derby 8b 278
Deaths Mar 1861 (>99%) HOWARD Ann W Derby 8b 339
Not a lot of help, as, of course, they pre-date the inclusion on the index of the age at death.
Unfortunately, LancsBMD haven't got round to transcribing Liverpool deaths for the time-scale
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