Genealogy Chat

Hi I have found something puzzling on some of the censuses .
In 1851 there are twins listed . William Morgan and Thomas Morgan , both 7 years old But on the 1861 census William's age is given as 18 and Thomas as 17.
Would it be done to give priority to an older son to inherit ?

:-S

Possible? 1851 was taken on 30th March, 1861 on 7th April. If one was born between those dates they would have been 7 last birthday 1851 and 18 in the next one.
B

Have you attempted to find their births, or are there just too many William and Thomas Morgans to sort them out?

Just because they are the same age in 1851 does not mean they are twins - that is your assumption.

They are listed on the 1851 census as Son Twin . They are not direct family but could be in laws as their sister married Edward Thomas who could be related to my great grandfather .I was just curious why they should be listed as twins there , but have different birth years on the following census

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census



Household Information

Street
Parish Saint Brides
City
County Glamorganshire
Division Of County Glamorganshire
Ecclesiastical District
Enumeration District 3a & 4
Hamlet Pitcott
House Name Penuchardre House
House Number
Parliamentary Borough The Parish of Saint Brides Major
Municipal Ward
Registration District Bridgend
Category Census, Land & Surveys
Record set 1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Collections from Great Britain

Person 1

First Name Alice
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1842
Age 9
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Daughter
Gender Female
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 2

First Name Charles Rd
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1848
Age 3
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Son
Gender Male
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 3

First Name Evan
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1839
Age 12
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Son
Gender Male
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 4

First Name Jane
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1849
Age 2
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Daughter
Gender Female
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 5

First Name John
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1846
Age 5
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Son
Gender Male
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 6

First Name Margaret
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1845
Age 6
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Daughter
Gender Female
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 7

First Name Martha
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1810
Age 41
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town Pyle
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Wife
Gender Female
Occupation Farmer's Wife
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 8

First Name Martha
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1838
Age 13
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Daughter
Gender Female
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 9

First Name Thomas
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1808
Age 43
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Head
Gender Male
Occupation Farmer
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 10

First Name Thomas
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1844
Age 7
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Son Twin
Gender Male
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 11

First Name William
Last Name Morgan
Birth Year 1844
Age 7
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Son Twin
Gender Male
Occupation
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 12

First Name Anne
Last Name William
Birth Year 1832
Age 19
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Servant
Gender Female
Occupation Servant Maid
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461
Source
Archive Reference HO107

Person 13

First Name Edward
Last Name William
Birth Year 1832
Age 19
Birth Place Wales
Birth Town St Brides
Birth County Glamorgan
Relationship To Head of Household Servant
Gender Male
Occupation Farmer Servant
Folio 534
Page 10
Piece Number 2461

Have you checked the 1861 image in case there is a transcription error? There might even have been one between the household sheet and the compiliation we hae access to.

I can't see how inheritance laws would come into play at this stage in their lives, but you never know. There's an outside chance that that one was born 7 April and the other the following day, or that the elder of the two insisted that his status as such be recorded :-S

Yes they are clearly marked as twins on the 1851 image .There is also an older brother . On the 1861 census William is 18 and Thomas 17 and on the1871 census William is 27 and Thomas is 26 As you said that would be because of the different Census months

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how the different census dates could explain this. Twins are born on the same day It doesn't matter whether it's 30th March or 3rd April, they should be the same age.

But it's late and maybe my brain is asleep........

If they were born in St Brides, then that would be Bridgend.

If you look for births for William Morgan and Thomas Morgan from 1843 to 1844 in Bridgend, if they were twins they would be on the same, or consecutive, pages.

Cannot see any possibles.

Added:
Apologies, there are a pair of possibles,Dec. 1843, see postings below.

BeverleyW,
twins can be born in different years....
one before Midnight on NewYear's Eve, and one just after, on New Year's Day.

found baptism records with parents Thomas and Martha Morgan
William born 1843 baptised 28 may 1843
Thomas born1844 baptised 18 Aug 1844
Only thing I can think of is did the twin Thomas die, and a new baby was named after him .
So many named Thomas Morgan I can't trace the right birth as the parents are not named on the birth records

found two birth records now
WILLIAM birth quarter 4 Volume 26 339
Thomas birth quarter 4 Volume 26 340

But if the birth quarter is the end of the year then William could not have been baptised in May :-S :-S

I got confused, so I'm just posting the record from freebmd


Births Dec 1843 (>99%)

Morgan William Bridgend 26 339

Births Dec 1843 (>99%)

Morgan Thomas Bridgend 26 340

It IS possible that one could have been born BEFORE midnight on April 7, and the second born AFTER midnight, so officially born on April 8


The census asked for the age AT midnight on the day of the census ........... ie, midnight April 7


Thus one would have been 18 and the other 17.



The modern-day transcriber had to translate age in years into birth year ............... so the boys would show as being bron in different years.

It does not help that the image on freebmd is of the handwritten record ................... and it is written alphabetically!!


so all the Thomas are together, and then all the Williams.



Normally, twins would be shown together, with the same page number ........... there is absolutely no way to tell whether the Thomas and William found on freebmd are actually the children of the same mother, ie the twins.




Have you looked at the image of the baptisms?

Does that show the birth date of the children?

It's the year that is different on the baptisms not just the day . One is 1843 the other is 1844 with the same parents names .
Sylvia has found the same records that I posted . My earlier suggestion that one may have died and a new baby was given his name Is Wrong .
as they are listed as twins at 7 years old
Also if they were twins why would they be baptised at different times ?

Are you sure they are definitely twins? It might just be the enumerator making an assumption on the census. It's a long shot I know but I have a case in my family where on a couple of census returns there are two girls of the same age and everyone (including lots of public trees) has assumed they are twins. But in fact one was the daughter and one the step daughter of the head of household. After the death of his wife the chap had married a widow with a daughter the same age as his own daughter. As the new wife had the same first name as the old wife it wasn't obvious from the census returns that he had remarried.

The stepdaughter had been originally registered in her birth father's name but then was known by her step father's name.

I know you appear to have found birth registrations for both your twins but Thomas and William Morgan are common names so you would need certificates to be sure of their parents.

As I said it 's a real long shot but might be another avenue to explore.

Good luck :-D

Will just throw this one in as nothing better found as yet.

Could they each have been one half of a set of twins, where the other died. It is feasible for 2 births to happen in the same 12 months (or 2 sets of twins)

ie. first set twins
born 4 April 1843, becomes 7 on 4 April 1850 and is still 7 on census day 31 March but becomes 18 on 4 April 1861 and census day not until 7 April

second set twins
born 28 Feb 1844, becomes 7 on 28 Feb 1851 and is just 7 on census day 31 March
but becomes 17 on 28 Feb 1861 and is still 17 on census day 7 April

Hopefully you get the idea, even if my maths isn't 100%

I am not convinced that the birth registrations for William and Thomas which FWD found are in fact siblings.


I found and re-posted those registrations to make it clear to myself (and anyone else equally confused) exactly what she was referring to

If they are twins, and registered at the same time, the entries should be on the same page ........ ie, either both on p 339 or both on p 340


The only reason that I can imagine why twins registered at the same time should not have the same page number would be if one is the last entry on p. 339 and the other is the first entry on p.340

That was why I went searching for the registration and why I looked at the image of both, hoping to solve the problem


But that is impossible to tell as the only image to be seen on freebmd is a page of handwritten registrations arranged alphabetically ....................

usually the images show registrations in order of registration.


and SuffolkVera is quite correct ................... there are a LOT of William and Thomas Morgans registered in 1843 and 1844! Easily seen just how many when they are alphabetical.

If you ring the Registrar at Sunnyside, Bridgend, they might be able to help.

They won't give you all the information contained on a certificate, but I have known registrars to be willing to confirm suspected facts.

They would be in the best position too to actually issue the correct birth certificates for your family.

Gwyn

Even back in 1844 a time of birth was stated on the certificate for a multi birth for births that were registered ,assuming both were born alive.so you need a correct birth certiciate for either William or Thomas to confirm they were twins.