Genealogy Chat

I’ll try to put this as simply as I can.
I have a link to a Frederick Collins brn 11/4/1872 birth certificate has Fred Collins on it.
His parents were Henry Collins and Mary Calver.
They had several children including an Isaac Collins this is where my query lies.
I have a birth certificate for Isaac Collins brn 13/05/1870
His parents seem to have had Isaac baptised on 03/06/1870 but they also had another baptism for an Isaac Freddy Collins brn in 1872 baptised privately 01/05/1874 there is no birth certificate for Isaac Freddy Collins just a birth certificate for the above Frederick Collins brn in 1872.
I have checked there is only one birth registered for an Isaac Collins and no deaths.
I cannot find the baptism for Fred Collins.
I’m trying to fathom why they called 2 sons Isaac, no one in the family has ever done this before.
Just looking for reasons as to why this might be
Any suggestions appreciated.
P.s I have seen all of the census’s for the family

Many thanks in advance

If a child died it was often a norm to name the next child of the same sex with the same norm

Or are you saying only one Issac on the next census

Looking at the baptisms they are text only

Am leaning to that Isaac Freddy being Fred

Both brothers alive in 1881:

Frederick Collings
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Frederick Collings
[Frederick Collins]
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: Henry Collings
Gender: Male
Where born: Monk Soham, Suffolk, England
Civil Parish: Monk Soham
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration District: Hoxne
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors:
Piece: 1859
Folio: 36
Page Number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Collings 40
Arthur Collings 16
George Collings 14
Isaac Collings 10
Frederick Collings 8
William Collings 6


It's not unknown for families to have two children with the same name - though it must have been confusing.

But in this case, either it's a mistake on the baptism record - have you seen the original?
Or else Isaac is a family name (though I don't see it on a quick look back at the parents' families) and the parents decided to add it at baptism, although the child's birth was registered as Frederick and he was clearly known as Frederick.


For our reference:

COLLINS, FRED CALVER
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in HOXNE Volume 04A Page 594

COLLINS, ISAAC CALVER
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in HOXNE Volume 04A Page 586

Isaac Freddy Collins
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Isaac Freddy Collins
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 1 May 1874
Baptism Place: Monk Soham,Suffolk,England
Father: Henry Collins
Mother: Mary


Isaac Collins
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Isaac Collins
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 3 Jun 1870
Baptism Place: Monk Soham,Suffolk,England
Father: Henry Collins
Mother: Mary

Births Jun 1870 (>99%)
Collins Isaac Hoxne 4a 586

The baptism is text only Malyon

Another thread started about Isaac from 1901 onwards:

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1393126

From the other thread, asking a different question but the same man

I have an Isaac Collins brn 13/05/1870 in monk Soham.
I have him on all the census’s up to 1901 past this I have nothing, he was in the army and then discharged.
I cannot find out what happened to him I certainly can’t find a death record, I have tried the 1911 and 1939 but nothing.
They only thing I’ve found is Isaac on the 1901 census in Canterbury kent it says he is married there is an Emily with him. I’ve searched for a marriage but there is non. There were the banns for a marriage between Isaac Collins and a Emily Richards in 1901 but there is no date for the marriage on the record .

I do have membership for FMP at the moment if anyone has any pointers

------------------------

The 1901 census you refer to on the other thread

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
7, Staplegate Place, Staplegate, Blean, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Isaac Collins Lodger Married Male 29 1872 Horse Breaker Suffolk, England
Emily Collins Lodger Married Female 23 1878 - Canterbury, Kent, England

Isaac Collins
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Isaac Collins
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation to Head: Lodger
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Monk Soham, Suffolk, England
Civil Parish: Staplegate
Ecclesiastical parish: St Alphage
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration District: Blean
Sub-registration District: Sturry
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors:
Piece: 796
Folio: 13
Page Number: 18
Household Schedule Number: 83
Household Members:
Name Age
Harry Collins 32 - Monk Soham
Mary Ann Collins 33
Arthur Henry 4
Isaac Collins 29
Emily Collins 23

Sorry I have done a 2nd post about Isaac after finding him on the 1901 I found a marriage bann record for an Isaac Collins and a Emily Richards in Canterbury. However there is no marriage date on it or a record of a marriage taking place at any time ??

I don't see the banns you mention - what site did you find that on?

If that marriage didn't take place, I wonder if this is relevant??

Marriages Sep 1901 (>99%)
Buxton Arthur Canterbury 2a 1807
RICHARDS Emily Canterbury 2a 1807


Not that it helps at all with Isaac.

I found them on FMP
The banns date was the 7th April1901 at St Alphage, Canterbury

Kent Marriages And Banns
Canterbury, St Alphege, Kent, England

First name(s) Isaac
Last name Collins
Banns year 1901
Banns date 07 Apr 1901
Marriage year 1901
Marriage date -
Place Canterbury, St Alphege
Spouse's first name(s) Emily
Spouse's last name Richards
Groom's parish Borough Of Staplegate
Bride's parish Borough Of Staplegate
County Kent
Country England
Archive Canterbury Cathedral Archives
Archive reference U3/8
Register year range 1898-1933
Page 16
Record set Kent Marriages And Banns
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain
© Findmypast

From image.
Banns read 7/14/21 April
Bachelor and spinster

It certainly appears that they didn't actually marry.

Yes that’s what I thought, I just cannot find him past this date

Kent Marriages And Banns
Canterbury, St Alphege, Kent, England

First name(s) Arthur
Last name Buxton
Birth year 1868
Marriage year 1901
Marriage date 30 Sep 1901
Place Canterbury, St Alphege
Spouse's first name(s) Emily
Spouse's last name Richards
Groom's age 33
Groom's father's first name(s) Arthur
Groom's father's last name Buxton
Bride's age 22
Bride's father's first name(s) Thomas
Bride's father's last name Richards
County Kent
Country England
Register year range 1896-1914
Archive Canterbury Cathedral Archives
Archive reference U3/8
Page 42
Record set Kent Marriages And Banns
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

From image -
Arthur a Bachelor aged 33 a Private in the 21st Lancers s/o Arthur a Labourer
Emily a spinster aged 22 d/o Thomas Richards a Labourer.
Both of 7 Staplegate Place. ***************
Witnesses - (? Henry) Arthur Collins and Mary Ann Collins <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

From image of the Banns entry -
Banns read 15/22/29 Sept
Bachelor and spinster

***********1901 address of the Collins
<<<<<<<< Names of the people with whom Isaac and Emily Collins were living on the 1901 census.
So was Emily "Collins" living with Isaac as his wife and was in actual fact Emily Richards??

Yes she was still Emily Richards on the census as there are only the banns for the marriage between Isaac Collins and Emily Richards that year there was no actual marriage that took place

Yes I can see only Banns for Isaac and Emily and no marriage

BUT am wondering if the Emily Collins on that 1901 census (not on census as Emily Richards) was living with Isaac as his wife and therefore using his surname but was actually Emily Richards .

The address of 7 Staplegate on census is that given for the Marriage of Emily Richards and Arthur Buxton

FMP transcribes as 2 separate households whereas Ancestry has them on the same transcript (posted by AG earlier)

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
7, Staplegate Place, Staplegate, Blean, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Harry Collins Head Married Male 32 1869 General Farm Labourer Monk Soham, Suffolk, England
Mary Ann Collins Wife Married Female 33 1868 Farm Field Worker Mile End, Middlesex, England
Arthur Henry Collins Son Single Male 4 1897 - Canterbury, Kent, England

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
7, Staplegate Place, Staplegate, Blean, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Isaac Collins Lodger Married Male 29 1872 Horse Breaker Suffolk, England
Emily Collins Lodger Married Female 23 1878 - Canterbury, Kent, England

Not that it helps with Isaac

Yes that’s what I thought I’ve seen the census and it clearly seems to be Emily is still Richards and is just on the census as Collins for whatever reason, but they definitely didn’t get married.

I just cannot find Isaac Collins anywhere else after this no marriage or even a death record. Definitely not on any census after this

Emily is listed as Collins on the census because they were living together as man and wife, but for respectability they had to pretend to be married.

Clearly Isaac had intended to marry her, but then they broke up and she married Arthur Buxton instead.
Poor Isaac!

??? Just a thought -

Deaths Jun 1901 (>99%)
Unknown Male 25 Blean 2a 512


Deaths Mar 1902 (>99%)
Unknown Male 25-30 Blean 2a 742

Deaths Jun 1904 (>99%)
Unknown Male - Blean 2a 491

Deaths Sep 1910 (>99%)
Unknown Male ? Blean 2a 461

Or one of the many "Unknown Male" deaths in other places.