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Maddie
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7 Aug 2021 16:51 |
baptised 6 Apr 1854 • South Hanningfield, Essex, mother hannah m neville she married 04 Jun 1854 South Hanningfield to william norris
what do you reckon the odds are that he is the father
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ErikaH
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7 Aug 2021 17:03 |
Quite possibly- but unless he was named on the baptism record you can never be certain
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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7 Aug 2021 17:18 |
NORRIS, SAMUEL JAMES NEVEILL GRO Reference: 1856 M Quarter in CHELMSFORD Volume 04A Page 136 1861 census
Name: Samuell F Norriss Age: 5 Estimated Birth Year: 1856 Relation: Son Father's Name: William Norriss Mother's Name: Hannah Norriss Gender: Male Where born: Runwell, Essex, England Civil Parish: Downham County/Island: Essex Country: England Street Address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: View image Registration District: Billericay Sub-registration District: Wickford ED, institution, or vessel: 4 Neighbors: View others on page Household Schedule Number: 30 Piece: 1077 Folio: 28 Page Number: 4 Household Members: Name Age William Norriss 36 Hannah Norriss 30 Susan H Norriss 7 Samuell F Norriss 5 Emer Norriss 2 Amelie Norriss 4
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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7 Aug 2021 17:19 |
No father named
Name: Susan Hannah Neville Baptism Date: 16 Apr 1854 Baptism Place: South Hanningfield, Essex, England Mother: Hannah Neville FHL Film Number: 001472340
Her birth
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: NEVEILL, SUSAN HANNAH - GRO Reference: 1854 M Quarter in CHELMSFORD Volume 04A Page 122 So looks like her husband took on her daughter
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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7 Aug 2021 17:24 |
Married as Norris
But then she probably thought William was her father
Susan Norris Registration Year: 1875 Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar Registration District: Chelmsford Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District Inferred County: Essex Volume: 4a Page: 245 Records on Page: Name Susan Norris Edwin Sanders
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greyghost
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7 Aug 2021 19:00 |
I'd give it good odds, but unfortunately unless there's proof .............
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Maddie
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7 Aug 2021 20:33 |
so true 4 of my ggg parents are missing for the same reason :-(
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Kucinta
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7 Aug 2021 22:56 |
Ancestry has a transcript of the marriage Shirley posted, but no image.
Father is recorded as ISAAC Norris
1st Feb 1875, Stock, All Saints, Essex.
Groom's father recorded as John Sanders
Bride was aged 19, groom was of full age.
Susan Sanders nee Norris remarries as a widow 11th Dec 1899, to James John Winterbottom at St Luke, West Norwood, Lambeth.
Image records her father as ISAAC Norriss, deceased horsekeeper.
Witnesses Ellen & Edwin Sanders
She is allegedly aged 36 for the 1899 marriage...her widowed groom was aged 50.
EDIT, She must be a different Susan Norris, with parents Isaac & Elizabeth and sibs in 1861 at Ramsden Bellhouse, Essex.
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ErikaH
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8 Aug 2021 09:21 |
Alternatively, if Norris was Susan’s father, why didn’t he marry the mother BEFORE the birth? Or, did he already have a wife?
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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8 Aug 2021 09:31 |
Soo looks like she married a sansom was widowed and remarried
Susan Sansom Gender: Female Record Type: Marriage Marriage Date: 14 Feb 1891 Marriage Place: St Peter, Hackney, Hackney, England Spouse: Thomas Clarke Tredgold Register Type: Parish Register
Fathers name William Norris deceased occ publican
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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8 Aug 2021 09:50 |
View 1881 England Census Name: Susan Sansom Age: 27 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854 Relationship to Head: Wife Spouse: Charles W. Sansom Gender: Female Where born: So Hanningfield, Essex, England Civil Parish: Tottenham County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street Address: 42 Templeton Road Marital status: Married Education: Employment status: View image Registration District: Edmonton ED, institution, or vessel: 25 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 1385 Folio: 73 Page Number: 17 Household Members: Name Age Charles W. Sansom 28 Susan Sansom 27 Alfred Sansom 2
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: SANSON, ALFRED NORRIS GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 260
So seems she still used Norris as her surname
Edit
Charles William Sansom Age: 30 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855 Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar Death Registration Place: Islington, London, United Kingdom Death Date: Mar 1885 Inferred Death Place: London, United Kingdom Volume: 1b Page: 256
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Kucinta
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8 Aug 2021 11:51 |
Charles Sansom married Susan Hannah L Norris Mar 1875 Islington 1b 432.
Postem confirms his bride was Susan Norris.
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ArgyllGran
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8 Aug 2021 11:52 |
Re ErikaH's thought that perhaps William Norris had been married before - it doesn't look like it:
1861 says his birthplace was Ramsden Bellhouse, and his marriage record says his father's name was also William. He's unmarried in 1851.
William Norris in the 1851 England Census Name: William Norris Age: 26 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825 Relation: Son Father's Name: William Norris Gender: Male Where born: Ramsden Bell House, Essex, England Civil Parish: Downham Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps: View related Ecclesiastical Parish County/Island: Essex Country: England Street Address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration District: Billericay Sub-registration District: Brentwood ED, institution, or vessel: 8 Neighbors: Household Schedule Number: 36 Piece: 1774 Folio: 546 Page Number: 11 Household Members: Name Age William Norris 50 William Norris 26 John Norris 15 Amelia Norris 12 Walter Norris 13 Samuel Norris 8
There's no sign of a marriage between 1851 and 1854.
Perhaps either he or Hannah (or both) didn't want to commit to a marriage until there was definitely a live child to support.
Perhaps Hannah didn't want to walk down the aisle while obviously pregnant.
Perhaps, perhaps - who knows?
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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8 Aug 2021 14:23 |
Kucinta
Ancestry has the parish marriage cert online and it’s def Morris
She gives her father as James Morris breweyman and she signs as Morris
It did seem to tie up though because are on the 1881 census with a son mmn Norris !
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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8 Aug 2021 14:28 |
Looks like she has three children by Charles’s sansom
They are with her in 1891 with her second husband
Name: Alfred Sansom Gender: Male Age: 12 Relationship: Son Birth Year: 1879 Father: Thomas C Tredgold Mother: Susan Tredgold Birth Place: Islington, London, England Civil Parish: Hackney Ecclesiastical parish: St Peters De Beauvoir Town Residence Place: Hackney, Hackney, London, England Registration District: Hackney Sub registration district: West Hackney ED, Institution or Vessel: 15 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 188 Folio: 6 Household Members: Name Age Thomas C Tredgold 44 Susan Tredgold 37 Thomas Tredgold 3 Martha V Tredgold 1 Charles Sansom 14 Alfred Sansom 12 Lewis W Sansom 9
SAMSON, LOUIS WILLIAM NORRIS GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 270
SANSON, CHARLES WILLIAM NORRIS GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 76
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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8 Aug 2021 14:34 |
Def right family Charles sansom is with willian and Hannah in 1881
Charles Sampson Age: 4 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877 Relationship to Head: Grandson Gender: Male Where born: London, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Brentwood County/Island: Essex Country: England Street Address: Back Street Public Hse Anchor Inn ? Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Scholar Registration District: Billericay ED, institution, or vessel: 1b Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 1756 Folio: 38 Page Number: 8 Household Members: Name Age William Norris 55 publican Hannah Norris 51 Louis J. Norris 15 Kate Norris 10 Jessie Harrington 21 Charles Sampson 4 Ada Norris 2 Wm. Smith 42 Priscilla Smith 37 Wm. Jackson 32 John Smith 53 Ann Smith 31 John Smith 4 William Gray 21 Edward Miller 20 George Russell 25 Edmund Fewell 24 George Hill 19 George Paterson 33 George Fewell 15
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Maddie
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8 Aug 2021 14:55 |
thank you as ArgyllGran says who knows than anyway
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Kucinta
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8 Aug 2021 16:53 |
Have you checked out the will of William Norris? Probate of the will was given to widow Hannah in 1882, William is described as a beerkeeper.
Might be wrong, but I think you can get an electronic copy of the will and probate for £1.50.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#calendar
Might be worth a punt to see if Susan is mentioned, and if so, how she is described.
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alviegal
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9 Aug 2021 13:12 |
William Farren, for assaulting William Norris, of the Hit or Miss beerhouse, the 13th inst., knocking him down and otherwise injuring him, was fined 11s. 6d. and costs... 26 February 1864 - Chelmsford Chronicle - Chelmsford, Essex, England
William Morris, of the Live and Let Live beerhouse, Brentwood, three deficient quart measures, 10s. and 8s. 6d. 20 December 1867 - Essex Standard - Colchester, Essex, England
Richard Frostick, chimney sweep, of Brentwood, was fined 5s. and costs 10s. for an assault upon William Norris, landlord of the " Live and let live" beerhouse, Brentwood.—lt appeared from the evidence that the defendant was severely.... 21 August 1868 - Chelmsford Chronicle - Chelmsford, Essex, England
... certificates of the Prince Wales (James Croucher), Star (Charles Smith). Rose Crown (Charles Childs), and Live and Let Live (William Norris), beerhouses Brentwood, were suspended for a fortnight in order that evidence might be taken as to the landlords harbouring prostitutes.... 08 September 1871 - Chelmsford Chronicle - Chelmsford, Essex, England
Not sure if any of these pertain to your William Norris.
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alviegal
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9 Aug 2021 13:31 |
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Blind Pond Cottages, Downham, Billericay, Essex, England
Household members (8 people) First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place William Norriss Head ag lab Male 45 1826 - Essex, England Hannah Norriss Wife Female 40 1831 - Essex, England Samuel Norriss Son Male 15 1856 - Essex, England Emma Norriss Daughter Female 12 1859 - Essex, England Elizabeth M A Norriss Daughter Female 7 1864 - Essex, England Louis J Norriss Son Male 5 1866 - Essex, England Katey Norriss Daughter Female 0 1871 - Essex, England David Clark Lodger Male 35 1836 - Essex, England
1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Butts, Downham, Billericay, Essex, England
Household members (6 people) First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place William Norriss Head Married Male 36 1825 Agricultural labourer Ramsden Bellhouse, Essex, England Hannah Norriss Wife Married Female 30 1831 Agricultural labourers wife South Hanningfield, Essex, England Susan H Norriss Daughter Unmarried Female 7 1854 - South Hanningfield, Essex, England Samuel E Norriss Son Unmarried Male 5 1856 - Runwell, Essex, England Emma Norriss Daughter Unmarried Female 2 1859 - Runwell, Essex, England Amelia Norriss Daughter Unmarried Female 0 1861 - Downham, Essex, England
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