Genealogy Chat

The man in question was a grocer in 1901

ADDED 22/7

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
79, Blackthorn Street, London, Bromley, Poplar, London & Middlesex, England
William Gobel Head Married Male 55 1846 Grocer Germany (British Subject)
Charlotte Gobel Wife Married Female 45 1856 - Stepney, Middlesex, England
George H Gobel Son Single Male 17 1884 - Stepney, Middlesex, England
Frederick Mitchell Step son Single Male 16 1885 Groom domestic Stepney, Middlesex, England
Charlotte Mitchell Step daughter Single Female 14 1887 Shirtmaker Stepney, Middlesex, England
Louisa Parker Boarder Single Female 19 1882 Shirtmaker Old Ford, Middlesex, England


23/7

..........................and a Postman in 1891, when his wife was a shopkeeper

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
79, Blackthorn Street, Bromley, Poplar, London & Middlesex, England

William Gobel Head Married Male 46 1845 Postman Germany
Margaretta Gobel Wife Married Female 50 1841 Shop keeper Germany
John Gobel Son Single Male 19 1872 Boot maker London, Middlesex, England
Bertha Gobel Daughter Single Female 17 1874 Machinist London, Middlesex, England
Eustina Gobel Daughter Single Female 15 1876 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
George Gobel Son - Male 7 1884 Scholar London, Middlesex, England



1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
(Shop), 48, White Horse Lane, Mile End Old Town, London & Middlesex, England

William Gobel Head Married Male 36 1845 Greengrocer Germany
Margaret Gobel Wife Married Female 40 1841 - Germany
William Gobel Son Single Male 10 1871 Scholar Mile End Old Town, Middlesex, England
John Gobel Son Single Male 8 1873 Scholar Mile End Old Town, Middlesex, England
Bertha Gobel Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Mile End Old Town, Middlesex, England
Justine Gobel Daughter Single Female 5 1876 Scholar Mile End Old Town, Middlesex, England
Harry Webirkanyr Nephew Single Male 18 1863 Shoemaker Germany

Annotation 'BS' on image in 1881

John Gobel
in the UK, Postal Service Appointment Books, 1737-1969
Name John Gobel
Appointment Date Jan 1893
Appointment Place London
Industry Postal Service

He was a sorter .

He seems to have been nominated in September 1892, but not actually confirmed as an employee until January 1893.

The Postal Museum in London has an archive for it's workers maybe worth a look

It's very kind of you all to spend time helping me to get all this more clearly in my mind, I don't know whether he ever did become naturalised, but as you say perhaps having worked for the Post Office was sufficient to protect him from internment.

If he was trusted to be a Postman - BEFORE 1911, as I said earlier - I would doubt that he would have been interned as a potential enemy.

Ancestry's back.

The man naturalised in 1906 was born c1861 in Engenhausen, Unterfranken, and was living in Deptford.
Married with 7 children by 1906. A confectioner.
In fact, that's the man whose shop was destroyed in 1914.
In 1911 he's at 181 High Street, with the children who are named in the naturalisation document.


The one I saw yesterday isn't for the right man either, unfortunately.
It's a 1916 naturalisation record for a William Goebel, a music salesman living in Bromley, Kent. Born in Hamburg c1877.

I don't see one for Janet's gr-grandfather.

That might be it, Jink, come to think of it.
I was probably just looking for John Gobel records yesterday, before I realised he was sometimes known only as William.

The Ancestry record has more detail.
Hope Ancestry's back to normal soon!


He wasn't the only naturalised John Gobel in London.
For instance, there's a report in the Pall Mall Gazette, 19/10/1914, of the destruction of the shop (High Street, Deptford) of a naturalised John Gobel, baker and confectioner, by an anti-German mob during the Deptford riots.

Possible naturalisation records??

Reference: HO 144/804/134374
Description: Nationality and Naturalisation: Gobel, John, from Germany. Resident in London. Certificate 15752 issued 14 February 1906.

Date: 1906
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department: 134374

and

Reference: HO 334/41/15752
Description:
Naturalisation Certificate: John Gobel. From Germany. Resident in London. Certificate A15752 issued 14 February 1906.

Date: 1906
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: English
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

Many thanks for all the replies, I'll check them against my Ancestry tree as soon as that site is up and running again.
He certainly did become a postman quite late in life, I have a photograph of him in his postman's uniform, looking very proud of himself.
The family listed by Argyll Gran is correct, my mother was Bertha Katharina's daughter.
I know both he and his second wife, Charlotte, died in 1927 within quite a short space of time, he in fact died on my mother's 21st birthday.
Although he has claimed to be British in one of the census returns, I haven't been able to find proof of this. If Argyll Gran can find the naturlisation record she referred to, I'd love to see it.
I usually receive emails telling me there have been replies to my post, but sadly I didn't receive any this time. Perhaps the system has changed and I didn't realise.

East London Observer 20 July 1907

William Gobel, a letter sorter in the General Post Office, residing at 2, Avenue-Park-Road, Forrest Gate, was summoned, at the instance of the Poplar Guardians, to show why he should not contribute towards the support of his father, who was in receipt of parish relief.......Defendant's father was 62 years of age.........Defendant had to support a wife and four children....Defendant was ordered to contribute 4s a week towards father's maintenance.

I don't think so, Jink.
I'm pretty sure the name was William Gobel.

I'll find it when Ancestry's working again.

AG- Was it this Wilhelm?

Reference: HO 144/1259/236046
Description:
Nationality and Naturalisation: Goebel, Wilhelm, from Germany. Resident in Merton, Surrey. Certificate 23511 issued 22 May 1913.

Date: 1913
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

As far as I can see from FS, he wasn't claiming to be a British subject in 1891 or earlier - only in 1901 and later.

Yesterday, on Ancestry, I saw a naturalisation record for a William Gobel, but can't remember the date or other details.

Worldwide IT outage is currently affecting many sites

1901 has a George Gobel, 1884, (Henry George one must assume) plus two Mitchell children who are step-children to Head

OP needs to look for naturalisation papers, in view of the man's declaration that he was British subject

We need Janet's input re his marriage (s).

Births of children from the 1867 marriage:

GOBEL, ROSINA mmn VIOHL
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 414

GOBEL, BERTHA KATHARINA mmn VIOHL
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 555

GOBEL, WILLIAM mmn VIOHL
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 565

GOBEL, JOHN mmn VIOHL
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 609

GOBEL, KARL mmn VHIOL
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 569

GOBEL, JUSTINE KARALINE HENRYETTE mmn YIOHL
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 619

GOBEL, HENRY GEORGE mmn YHOIL
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 547


Karl and Rosina both died as infants.


Possible death of first wife Margaretta Katerina ????:

Deaths Sep 1899 (>99%)
Gobel Margaret 59 Poplar 1c 446

If so, a second marriage in 1900 is feasible.

Can't look anything up on Ancestry at the moment - it keeps saying "This page is temporarily unavailable."



In 1881 (per FS) Justine is in Mile End with her parents William (greengrocer, 36) and Margaret (40), and siblings Bertha, John, and William.

Possibly not the right man above, unless he married twice

William Gobel m Charlotte Mitchell in 1900

Johan Karl W m. In 1867

he was a grocer in 1901 - obviously changed occupation BEFORE 1911

He is recorded as BRITISH subject in 1901

If the 1911 is the right man, he was a ‘patient’ in 1921………out-of-work Postman, married, recorded as William
It may be that he and Charlotte both died in 1927

Johan/Johannes/John CONRAD Gobel (in Jink20's post at 00:27) was a different person.
He was born in Hackney in 1862.
His father, also called Johannes/John Conrad Gobel, born c1831, immigrated to London at some point before 1861, married in Hackney in 1861, and died in Middlesex , 5 June 1915.

As per ErikaH entry

1911 Census For England & Wales
15 Chiltern Road Bromley by Bow, Poplar Borough, London & Middlesex, England

John Charles William Gobel Head Married Male 66 184 Postman Germany
Charlotte Gobel Wife - Female 58 1853 London Stepney