Genealogy Chat

Has anyone ever had a marriage cert where there are NO witnesses? It was a church wedding. This one was 1919. UK Gerri.

No - never! Two witnesses are a requirement of a marriage contract. However, I read somewhere that the LACK of witnesses does not invalidate a marriage, so you can take your pick which of these is correct! But most exceptional I would think - what on earth was the Vicar thinking of?! Thinks - where did you get the marriage cert from? OC

Hi OC It was a 1919 marriage in Tonbridge Kent. Looks like....St Stephens Church. The whole cert is a mess. I think the reg was on the bottle! Loads of crossings out and very hard to read. Ages of 23 and 25 are crossed out and 'Full' written instead... Bride and grooms names are not at the bottom either. I sent for it from GRO. gggrrrr Gerri.

I found one in the parish register with just one witness' signature and I couldn't read it!, lol. Some of the signatures in the registers had almost disappeared, could this have happened with yours? Heather

How strange! I have bought more marriage certs than I would like to admit and have never come accross this..... all of mine have 2 witnesses and one cert has four! I wonder if anyone can help you with the legal side of this, we are so used to the fact that people who elope drag a couple of people off the street to witness because they are told that they can't marry without witnesses, maybe this was a relativly new law change and in 1919 witnesses were not required. I agree with OC on checking the source - did the cert come from the records office? - sorry you had already answered this while I was posting! Trudi

This was a marriage that I SUSPECT that the bride was only aged about 12. maybe even younger! Maybe they got the vicar drunk? lol (thats what the cert looks like) This whole family are a headache! The brides daughter ended up marrying the brides brother! 1st cousins? (Amended on 4th Feb.....sorry)....This should read... The brides sons wifes father was the brides brother. PHEW! lol This isnt from my tree,I'm helping a friend. He knew there was some inter marriage somewhere and we only today found the connection. Aint this hobby great!!!! well,it is when you find a key...lol I'm so happy! I'm so happy! so happy so happy la! la! and gay!!! tra la! tra la la le dar dar.... sorry....lol Gerri x thanks for your input x

If she was under 12 there must have been parental permission, and therefor parents as witnesses...... I have one underage marriage, she was pregnant and her parents witnessed. Or maybe the Vicar was three sheets..........it doesn't bear thinking about. I hope someone can give you some legal information re witnesses at that time, very interesting. Trudi

You couldnt marry under the age of 12 for a girl and 14 for a boy...you need parents permission after this age up to 21....until 1929

Just had a thought..... Maybe the GRO are at fault? They photo copy from the register..yes? well, maybe they diddnt get the last bit...ie: names of bride and groom also witnesses? Can I phone them do you think? Gerri x

Gerri, could you find where the original register is, perhaps the county records office, and contact them. Perhaps they'd look and tell you if their copy is the same..... Heather

Thanks Heather. I'll pass that onto my friend. Gerri x

Sorry - I got sidetracked....I would try to get hold of the marriage register and see what is on there. Witnesses to a marriage have ALWAYS been a requirement, since time began, and long before written records of marriages were kept, because a witness was required to be able to prove at some later date that a marriage had occurred. One possible exception has occurred to me though - if the Church was what is called a 'peculiar' (that is, it is outside the ecclesdastical law) then these churches, could, and did, whatever they wanted to do - marriages could be performed without Banns or Licence, you literally just turned up and the Vicar married you. Googling might tell you if this Church was a Peculiar. But - this Vicar passed the marriage on to the GRO, so he was toeing the line in that respect and I would have thought he would have demanded two witnesses - his wife, the verger, a scullerymaid at the Vicarage, anyone at all. You need to see the marriage register! OC

Thanks OC. Value your input. Gerri x

St Stephens Church Tonbridge have their own website....just found on Google. They might be able to help re. registers. Gwyn

I recently had the chance to see some up to date church marriage registers and you would be appalled at the standard of them - completed in biro, signatures missing, still using bachelor and spinster when this changed over a year ago, bride and groom's signatures in the wrong place, space for father's name containing only the word deceased and occupation the word retired, no capitals for surnames, boxes left blank. Quite a shock in this day and age where borderline literacy cannot be an excuse! If you want your ancestors to know all about you and avoid all the tribulations you have to go through, get all your hatches, matches and dispatches done at a registration office where the registrars are well trained, professional about the task they are doing and do it every day and where errors, which still happen occasionally, are likely to be picked up and corrected! Jack

Fascinating stuff! Sorry to sort of hi-jack this - but I noticed that Jack Sprat says that bachelor and spinster 'went' a year ago. Can you tell me what it is now please? Victoria (ancient and living in Australia)

When the Civil Partnership Act came into force in Dec 2005 to allow same-sex couples to form a legal union, Bachelor and Spinster became Single for both the bride and groom. So now the choices for the 'Condition' box also include 'Previous Civil Partnership Dissolved' as well as 'Previous Marriage Dissolved'. Likewise, anyone giving a notice of marriage or CP will be asked by the registrar 'Have you ever been through any form of marriage or civil partnership in this or any other country?'. Ask away if there's anything else you want to know! Jack

Gerri Tell me I misread this line:- This whole family are a headache! The brides daughter ended up marrying the brides brother! 1st cousins? I make it that the brides brother married his neice!!! and marriages between uncle and neice is and always was considered incest - it was illeagal long before 1919. I do hope I misread.

Lunar It may be illegal for uncle to marry niece - but is has always happened, and still does! Well, certainly in my tree antway -they usually nip off to another parish, or a nearby large town to do the dirty deed, though. OC

'This whole family are a headache! The brides daughter ended up marrying the brides brother! 1st cousins?' (Amended on 4th Feb.....sorry)....This should have read... The brides sons wifes father was the brides brother. PHEW! Now you see where the headache comes in! lol Gerri.