Genealogy Chat

There have been so many patitions in the last 5 years to get the 1911 census early that no-one in government takes any notice any more. Besides, most if it will be available in 2 years and the rest of it will be out in 2012. On top of that even if the government changed it's mind tomorrow we wouldn't have it much earlier by the time it's scanned and indexed, which could take about 5 years. By all means try to get the 1921 census and later ones early but try to remember that it will still take around 5 years to index and scan so the earliest you'll get it is 2016. And please consider that people are living longer and may not want you knowing things that they want to forget about. I've dug up some things doing genealogy that my family would rather not know such as shot gun weddings and children who died in infancy. There are alot of members on here who have relatives who are over 100, how do you think their relatives would feel if they found out that they weren't who they thought they were? Although I would love to have the 1921 census to find certain ancestors I know that I must wait and be patiant.

Bob You are a worse nitpicker than me - the words used were 'Information given in this census will remain confidential'. The inference and the intention was understood by Joe Soap to mean 'never'. The fact that the wording did not make this crystal clear is a useful get-out clause for all those instant family historians who want it all, and want it today. I don't have any intention of starting any petition, let alone one which asks for the 1931 census to be held back until its due date - I wouldn't want to make myself look so stupid! I am entitled to express my opinion on the early release of censuses - we all, hopefully, learn through an exchange of ideas, and I for one have changed my mind on a number of subjects through discussions like these. If it makes only one or two people look at the facts before they sign a petition then that cant be a bad thing - actions should always be informed actions, not knee-jerk-jump-on-the-bandwagon actions. And by the way - Suffragettes did not get the vote by starting a petition! If you want the Government to find extra money for a useful project, then why not petition them to get a move on with the DOVE project, which will make the instant downloading of historical bmd certs possible - far more use in my opinion, than releasing censuses which don't exist. OC

Hard to believe that some are getting so uptight about this yet again. I don't think I would have the nerve to submit a petition for the early release of such material on the basis that all I wanted it for was to pursue my interest in family history! It will all be released in the fullness of time. In the meantime take up another hobby. By the release of the 1921 census, which I would find useful, I might well be dead. So? Asking for the release of a non-existent English census says it all. Interesting to note that the 1911 census for one part of the UK - Northern Ireland - has been accessible for some time, but not in the UK! And also nice to see overdue recognition that the 1931 Scottish census was not destroyed. Denis Denis

If you read Horatia's thread last week you will know that the 1911 is being rolled out from 1909. Thats only 2 years time. What do you expect instant results?? These things have to be digitised and transcribed, or do you want to scroll through the whole of England and Wales to find your rellie. Margaret

I think the 1911 census should be available the info you get on electorial roll is almost the same ....age name and address

Bob, I have read the thread and to me as it say's 1911, 1921 & 1931 Census Please sign the e-petition to get the census information released early. This is asking for people to sign the petition to get 1911, 1921 & 1931 Census released early or am i reading this with differenet eyes to what i normaly use, I stand by my earlier post which said, I agree with the 100 year rule, I have got 2 rellies that are still living at the same address that they were born at in 1908 and 1910 so i think that the rule is a good one, and people should respect the law and stop being selfish. Roy

Hi just signed, if we get the 1911 census early that would be great rick

Roy, read the thread please. We do respect the law, the one you are talking about doesn't exist. OC it doesn't help any discussion if you make things up, the word 'never' was not used. If it was then you shouldn't access any census. The petition is about releasing censuses early, if you don't agree with it start you own petition in opposition to that. Bob

I agree with the 100 year rule, I have got 2 rellies that are still living at the same address that they were born at in 1908 and 1910 so i think that the rule is a good one, and people should respect the law and stop being selfish, or why do we not agree to release all the census's including the last one which will have all our details. Roy

Bob It is not a question of trying to undermine people's efforts, it is a question of looking at the FACTS. For instance - no English 1931 census now exists - so why are people petitioning for it to be released early. I agree with Guy here, the petition is badly worded and likely to do more harm than good - baying for the release of a census which does not exist merely makes the signatories look stupid. The early release of previous censuses, as orchestrated by the SOG, was an entirely different matter - how many of us belong to SOG, even today? At the time they moved to have the census released early, very few people, other than professional genealogists were interested and you had to go to Kew to see it, thus ensuring that only the really interested professionals saw it, and presumably used the information with the discretion that membership of SOG demands. I would LOVE, purely as a family historian, to see the early release of all censuses - but who is to pay for that release? Are you happy for your taxes to go up, to cover the cost - an enormous cost, if you want it done quickly. And should the censuses be released early, then I shall go to prison, rather than ever fill in another one. There is a principle at stake here - what will come next? The publishing of living people's medical records? Their prison records? The very early censuses were never intended to be made public, which is why they carry no clause about release date - they said simply that the information was confidential and would NEVER be released. OC

In genealogy Guy is one of the most experienced Guys around ! He has many of the original acts on his site. I do not agree however that the petition can do any harm. If you told the government that changing the law on censuses would win them the next election they would change it tomorrow. Bob

Willow, He can read the boards but can't post. ;-) He says he's a tight wad! His words not mine! But I'll make sure he knows about your response. :-) Cheers, Horatia

Hi Horatia Please thank Guy for clarifying that.

I am posting this on behalf of Guy Etchells who can't post on GR. Please see the end of the message if you wish to discuss this further with Guy - I am only the intermediary and I'm not as clued up on these matters as Bob, OC or Guy! ;-) This is Guy: I am sorry but in my opinion the petition is rather badly thought out and is liable to do more harm than good. The 1911 census is covered by different legislation than the later census and different rules apply. First there is no 100 year rule for the any census; that was imposed in 1966 by the Lord Chancellor's Instrument no. 12 of 1966 which was repealed in 2000 by the Freedom of information Act. The Lord Chancellor has the power to release the 1911 census early, today if the will was there. The 1921 and later census come under the 1920 Census Act as amended by the Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991. This prohibits the release of information from the census without limitation. Which means parliament (Lord Chancellor) could decide to refuse to release the later census ever if they so wished. At present there are loop-holes that may allow early access to the later census, badly worded petitions could result in these loop-holes being closed before a ruling is made to establish access. I would also point out that when the 1911 census was taken most census were released after 50 to 80 years not 100 years. The 1931 England & Wales census was destroyed by fire due to enemy action but the 1931 Scottish census is in the archives waiting to be released. The statistics from the various census up to 2001 are released after about a year or so but these do not include names so are of little use for genealogy. Guy Etchells PS if anyone wishes to contact me about this just google “Guy Etchells” for my email.

Willow it's no good quoting organizations like the ONA & TNA they have been ruled against ! No censuses up to 1981 ever mentioned 100 years They had general statements about confidentiality. The 100 year rule defined that as 100 years in 1966. This has been abolished. The TNA were trying to use S44 FOI act to continue the rule. Even the post 1981 census '100 year' statements have been ruled non binding as they were given by the Registrar General without the authority of parliament. Bob

OC, I can't answer your other points re Guy but I do know that Guy wasn't responsible for this particular petition! ;-) Apparently the 1931 Scottish census wasn't destroyed. Cheers, Horatia

I thought there was a difference between the 1911 and the 1921 census in that the 1921 census was conducted under the 1920 census act which will stop disclosure under 100 years. thought i had read it somewhere http://www.ffhs(.)org(.)uk/Societies/Latest/index(.)htm Please note that Government policy is that the 1921 and subsequent censuses should remain closed for 100 years. Unlike the 1911 census, the 1921 census was conducted under the 1920 Census Act, which is still in force and which contains a statutory prohibition on disclosure. This means that if any Freedom Of Information Act (FOI) requests are received for the 1921 census, the exemption found in S44 of the FOI Act will be invoked to maintain census confidentiality. (The 1921 census is not held by TNA and remains, like all subsequent censuses, in the custody of the Office for National Statistics (ONS). p.s If you are told that something would not be released for 100 years then you expect that promise to be kept.

The 100 disclosure rule is no more. The 100 year disclosure rule has been abolished ( FOI Act 2000 ). There is thus no legal difference between the 1911 & 1921 ( Other that more people will be alive ) The decision as to whether censuses are released lies with Government / Parliament and the public are free to petition them as they wish to change the law or policy. Exactly as the Society of Genealogists did with previous censuses which were released early. If you don't agree with it don't sign it but please don't keep trying to undermine and pour cold water on the efforts of others. If people hadn't campaigned then women might not have the vote. Parliament can discuss what it wishes. (early day motions, private members bils etc ) Other countries release censuses earlier than we do Bob

Agree with Reg - petition is a complete and utter waste of time. Parliament will NOT discuss this again in the lifetime of this government. Guy Etchells has recently won, in my opinion, a pyrrhic victory over the 1911 census. Everyone now has the right, under the Freedom of Information Act, to see information from the 1911 census. There are one or two conditions attached to this right. You must know the exact name and address of the person you are seeking. You will only receive 'nonsensitive' information about that person and you will not receive information about the other people in the household. The search anfd find fee is now £45 - that is, £45 for each NAME, not each household. The pyrrhic victory bit is this - you have ALWAYS been able to access the 1911, on the above terms. But it used to be £20 per search, not £45! Thanks, Guy. OC

I beg Reg's pardon it WAS destroyed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Census