Genealogy Chat

Hi, Rob,

Thanks for your message.

It seems that I can't enter these ancestors without a genealogy package.

I started doing all this on borrowed Library computers. Everything had to be hand-written to transfer to my old AppleMac. Now I use my daughter's laptop, so there is little point in changing my system, unless or until I change from my Apple. Anyway, I like to see the hard copy from time to time.

Genes have suggested that I use GedCom, (which I have - unused) but as I said, it is my daughter's laptop and it would mean copying all programs and files on her laptop, to secure them, before loading GedCom. This requires her pemission ??**?? and time to do this !!**!!

Consequently, I cannot enter BC dates in the normal way. Even entering dates before 1000 AD is difficult, if I want to go back and change or add the information.

I now have about 12 lines which go back through the Irish Kings and another 4 lines through the more Mythical Danish Kings, waiting at about 1000 AD until I have solved this problem. AND I would really like to get this done!!!!!

:-(
Lindy.

Lindy

Not sure how I have managed to find Settlement Certs, Apprenticeship Certs, Army Musters, Bailiff docs back to the early 1700's, Estate Records, Marriage Licences back to the 1600's, letters to the National newspapers written in the 1850's by a great Uncle and a whole host more without doing my own research and I am sure I am not the only one on GR with this sort of info, but then you must also have all these docs otherwise you could not have got back so far!

Can't say I have been to Salt Lake City, but then the ones in Salt Lake City are only correct if they are the transcripts from the original Parish Registers, although we all know from Ancestry and the 1901 Census how unreliable that transcripts can be at times, and so need checking with the original registers. The ones that are submitted by others are only as accurate as the info put on them by those who submitted them and I have seen many going back to Adam but you are not that serious are you???

Perhaps you can share the secret of your success? I know many would be very interested.

Especially interesting about the Irish "Kings", as I am sure that you know that although they were known as "Kings" they were actually Chieftains or Clansmen, so that could be a bit of dodgy research?

Unfortunately there is no one around from yesteryear to tell us the correct interpretation of the Bible, especially with its many translations, and so all we have today are many human interpretations. many of which will have been lost in the mists of time with all those translations, on this Great Book, but that is all it is, interpretations, and very interesting, they all are. The Dead Sea Scrolls still have too many gaps, although the book on the Da Vinci Code tried to work hard on it, but all this human interpretation makes it difficult to come forwards from the Bible. We may just have to wait patiently for the Second Coming.

I can't say that I envy you wanting to input millions of names. I have found inputting about 500 is as much as I can cope with, so all the best of luck to you as I think you will need it.

If you are royalty then I can't compete!

I have lost one line at 1633 when the name then appears in Beds/Northants/Leicestershire/ and I cannot at present determine where the missing link might be, whilst on my Irish line surprise surprise oral history has it we come down the line of one of the "Kings". I think every Irish person must be told that.

Janet NLB

What puzzles me most is that GEDCOM is not a program; it's a file format and need not be 'installed'.
If you are using a computer (any computer) you are using a program to input the data, The question is;- does the program you are using to input and store your data SUPPORT the GedCom file format? If so problem solved.

Hi, Janet,

Thanks for your reply.

The 'secret' of my success is simply a friendly professional genealogist/librarian, who had access to a vast number of books on the subject. He merely pointed out the pages to look at and left me to it.

Many of my lines have stopped around 1700, but the few that continued did so for a reason, usually inheritance. However, if the females' births were recorded, it shows that the family was more important. Time and time again, I have found this. The male line usually stops much more quickly than the female line. (I'd look very closely at your 1633 find.)

I am not hoping to put in millions of names. There weren't that many people in Britain before 1000 AD.

If you are interested in the Irish 'Kings', try to find a copy of 'Reliquiae Celticae'. This book records the line from Mleadh, c 1250 BC to Erc, c450 AD. The Irish monks were very keen to have everything written down and not rely on memory.

And, no, I'm not royalty but I am convinced that we are all connected to royalty somewhere along the line. After all, William the Conqueror gave lands to his supporters, which made them attractive as marriage partners! But by the time the estates had passed through several generations, divided between the sons, they dwindled until there was little left.

All the Best in your search. (It is great fun, whatever you find!)
Lindy.

P.S. to Robert - I use Word, for listing ancestors.

Lindy

Thanks for your interesting perspective. Yes, the monks did record much of the handwritten material prior to the printed word when Caxton and others came on the scene in the 1400's. Bede, Benedict, St Augustine, Aquinas and the Lindisfarne Gospels, to name but a few, but having read some of these areas has not really helped my family history, though they have helped me to understand what is behind Family History but that is a different perspective..

Alexander Cameron wrote Reliquae Celticae between 1892 and 1894. I have not read it but I understand it is an interesting study of Gaelic Literature and Philogy. Could be interesting as I have one foot in Scotland, one in Ireland and one in England which is also part Irish. You seem to have studied this area in some depth.

I do not know any particular friendly librarians, but as an ex Librarian I have done my own research reading in Northants CRO, British Library and both Irish and English National Archives with some of the 16 century books a tad difficult to read in Olde English/Latin and French but luckily I do have some knowledge of both French and Latin and I have to say that I like to read all round the areas from whence my ancestors came. I belong to the Tipperary Historical Society and get a book each year for the past 15 years which is indepth into the history of the area to include much of the Celtic literature. I also belong to the Cork Hstorical Society and the Northants Record Society and all give me great insight into the social life of the times. I have found a Commonwealth Marriage and am looking indepth into the English Civil War and have a few ideas to get back from 1633 but no luck at present.

On the Irish side the family may well go back to the Great Hugh O''Neill, but I will have great difficulty in proving it because Irish records are just not around to get me back. I am a bit of a purist on FH and have to have proof before I consider that I have got back to a particular time.

One very prolific famous Irish writer we were lucky to meet one day, and he showed us his collection of old Irish books, and also showed us the tomb of Hugh O'Neill close to Ballyneale.

The further back you go yes it is true to say that you may well link into some form of inheritance and I have certainly found my own Northants line is possibly developing into an important line if only I can get further back.

No, I realise there were only about 4 million population in the UK around 1600, never mind when you get beyond 1066, although Black Death etc would have got rid of a few in the 1300's but I thought you meant inputting all your tree, not just the early ones which would then be millions?

Janet NLB

Hi, Janet,

Thanks for your reply!

Alexander Cameron copied the records from the Irish monks, written in Erse and translated them into English. Hence, one page of the book is in Erse and the facing page is in English. To say that Alexander Camerson wrote it, is not quite accurate.

Amazingly, considering today's opinion of the Irish, they were highly civilised in those days. Their wiritngs and architecture were far advanced compared to the rest of Britain. It seems to me that the Irish, since they avoided the Roman invasion, kept their beliefs and culture more Middle Eastern. They, also, seemed to populate Wales and Western Scotland, as Erse, Gaelic and Welsh languages are so similar.

There will always be ancestors whom we cannot 'prove' simply because the cetificates didn't exist. However, all we have to go on is the written records of others, such as Reliquae Celticae and the Bible.

Linking with an inheritance is not the point of the exercise! Nor is saying that I am one of the many millions of decendants of William the Conqueror!

A thought about 1633 - Was the Great Fire of London 1666? Could this be the link? I would love to find a book with all the great and minor events of this country in chronological order, so that I could relate them to ancestors.

Regarding my tree, I can only put in the ancestors I have found and there are so many I have not found. Therefore, putting in the few that I do have (so far 16, prior to 1000 AD) should not be too difficult, except for Genes program's inability to accept them. BUT if I find more!!!???!!!

All the Best,
Lindy.

Hi Lindy

Ah, you are on my own wavelength with regard to the Irish and their civilised writings. I have always maintained that Ireland is a lot better educated than we English have ever given them credit for!

I found one of my Irish Ancestors, an apprentice baker in Limerick writing to a National Irish Newspaper in the 1850's, huge long letters, which poetic language was worthy of James Joyce and he was quoting many Celtic writers of note. I knew he had written 2 letters because he had said so, but I decided he had written many more and eventually found 6 altogether which I am putting together to form a project.

The Great Fire of London was 1666 but my lot were steeped in Northants and Hunts at this time, but they were linked in to the Dudleys, Treshams and Montague as they worked for these people, so I have possibilities to look at in those estate papers, but it is finding the time to get to the record offices. Yes, relating the people to the events is very interesting and I am left wondering which side my lot were on in the civil war which of course was fought all round Northants and Cromwell came from Hunts. As mine are also linked to the Treshams and Francis Tresham was linked to the Gunpowder Plot, I am also wondering and reading around that one. No,it does not bother me about linking into any particular inheritance as the whole exercise of getting this far back is quite humbling anyway. I was lucky that mine stayed around the same hamlets for a few centuries. I have a Smith/Smythe back to 1598 but again it was in the same small hamlet.

Interesting to have talked with you and I hope you sort out your problem.

Good luck Janet North London Borders

Don't want to offend anyone so turn away now if you are of a delicate nature.

I've always fancied being a p*** artist :-)

Janet in Hertford

Hi again Lindy,

I too have relatives from Newcastle-under-Lyme! Hopefully they will be the same as the ones you have taken back so far - Pedley? No? Well never mind, it was a nice try.

Good luck in your research.

Sam (stuck in the 1700's!) x

Come on Lindy, stop taking the 'proverbial'. We all know this 'Irish Kings' rubbish is pure fiction. Even the Queen can't trace her ancestry BC. No serious genealogist gives credence to this 'blarney'.

Hi, Sam

When I said 'relatives', I meant living relatives. But, maybe you can help with a little puzzle? My grandfather's birth certificate says that he was born in Ashbourne-Under-Lyme. I can't find this place on a map. Is it small? Or has it changed it's name?

Hi, Paul

We're all special agents with a mission to research as much as we can, as reliably as possible, with the material available at this time.

Some books are less reliable than others. George Buchanan's genealogy of James VI of Scotland and I of England is totally unreliable. He had his own political reasons for making it up.

So, take a look at Reliquae Celticae and see for yourself! If only for lovely names in it - Eochaid Broad-Joint, son of Olill Bent-Tooth, son of Connla Hard-Willed (c400-300 BC), to name but a few.

BUT all this does not help me with my original problem of entering them on my Genes Tree!!!! If I could do that then, everyone, anyone could see it and comment.

Lindy.

I know I was ribbing Lindy earlier, but I think a great deal of what she has said on the Irish side does make sense and those with Irish interests should take note.

If anybody gets the magazine "Ancestors" the official magazine produced by TNA then the November issue on this very subject is quite illuminating, and Paul, sorry to have to say that it is believed by some serious genealogists.

The article is entitled" Irish Surnames hold genealogical clues" and the article is written by Anthony Adolph.

It is s long article and I canot reproduce it here but I will try to summarise.

He talks about surnames initially created for tax purposes, but these have no tradition attached beyond place they came from or occupation.

BUT most Irish surnames contain an extraordinary amount of coded information that can unlock a treasure chest of genealogical lore. Some prefixed Mac Mc or M all meaning son of. There are also papponymics starting O' or Ui, meaning descendant of, or grandson of, but in the imposition of English in Ireland many Macs and O's were lost from names. During the Gaelic revival of late 19 century they were sometimes put back incorrectly..Having worked out the original surname, you can deduce the name of your family's eponymous ancestor, for example the man called Diarmada or Suileabhain from whom the Macdermots and O'Sullivans descend. More often than not this ancestor will appear in Ireland's ancient corpus of genealogical material. Irish pedigrees are part of the island's rich bardic tradition, whose collective memory stretched back far beyond the fifth century AD, when early christian monks began their recordings. The pedigrees were copied, updated and reworked constantly, until the 16 century.

There follows much more interesting info and then goes on to talk about where the person appears in an ancient pedigree. You may have an accurate descent connecting into the main stems of irish Genealogy that stretch back to the sons of Milesius, the legendry founders of Ireland in the second millenium BC, although most are probably based more in legend than historical fact.

he finishes the article with:

" Let the purists scoff, but in most countries, similar traditions were lost many centuries ago. After all, it's your history. whether or not you can satisfy the genealogical pedants with a proven pedigree through the 18 and 17 centuries or not".

The verdict would appear to be still very wide open and I agree, Lindy, it has not solved your problem .

Janet North London Borders

Hi, Janet,

Thanks for this info.

And I do agree about names prefixed with Mac, Mc, M, O', ap, etc. or suffixed with 'son'.

Were families called after places or were places called after people? I have found that the people and places with the same name were the landowners. But which came first?

But it is amazing how place names survive over hundreds of years. I was looking for the site of an old Inn which had been demolished about 1850. I thought, 'No problem! That was only 150 years ago! Someone must know!' But none of the locals knew of it!!! No even the local Museum. I suspected it had been in a stand of trees, so I asked the local farmer about that part of his field. He didn't know but they had always called it 'The Garden'. From my research, I knew that the Inn had a beautiful garden, which supplied its needs. Ureka! There are still some dressed sand-stone blocks left lying around and a lovely little old bridge near by (still in use). But I still don't understand why the farmer didn't remove the few trees and blocks to staighten his field.

Other people were named after a physical characteristic, such as Brown (hair), White (hair), or dare I repeat .... Olill BENT-TOOTH !!!!! I think the Erse is more attractive with Olill Caishiaclach, but, of course, he didn't pass that name on to his children.

But all the different languages have interferred with the original spellings makes this line very confusing, e.g. Mile, Mileius, Mleadh, etc. A knowledge of Erse would help!

All the Best,
Lindy.

Hi Lindy,

Seen Elvis recently?

Tom

Quote: A knowledge of Erse would help!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erse

Need we say more?...

;-)

Erse can be:

an alternate name for any Goidelic language, especially Irish, from Erisch.

Your point being?

Lindy

We are looking for a forge demolished about 1910, yet nobody knows anything about it and yes it was there on Griiffiths and Tithe Aplotment maps. There are also famine roads and mass paths but nobody knows about them either so yes sadly this sort of info can disappear into the mists of time. One piece of ground near my O H farm in Ireland was always known as "holy ground", near to one of the sites of a 1798 rebellion massacre. When it was recently investigated it was found to contain at least 200 bodies but it has only recently been designated a proper burial ground for those that died during Cromwellian times, 1798 and Famine times. I have to say that I used to hate driving past it late at night, but since it has been consecrated I feel easier about it.

Sometimes people were called after places and I certainly have a couple of surnames that are also places but I have not done a serious study of this.

Janet NLB

Lindy, what was the reason for posting your Thread?

M. Steer

Lindy, Your problem with computers could possibly be overcome by purchasing a USB memory stick, you could plug it into your daughter's laptop, copy the info to the memory stick then transfer it to the Mac, presuming your 'old' Mac has a USB port and you're using 'Word ' on both.

Tom

Hi, All!

Tom - Thanks for this. I had not thought of it! But,
unfortunately, spellings were not standardised
until much later. e.g. Mile, Milius, Mleadh is
actually pronounced Meelay! Erse is very
difficult to write!

Robert - If you read the previous postings, you'll find
out!

M. Steer - See original posting!

Tom - Apple too old, c 1990, well before USB
Memory Sticks!

Janet - Spooky! Our local church, which I always felt was dark, was refurbished about 150 years ago and the graves of about 100 men were found below the floor-boards! My own theory is that they were involved in the Jacobite Rebellion of 1746 and massacred. The local Minister was sympathetic and even though they were not supposed to be buried in consecrated ground, he hid them under the floor!

Another spooky experience - For the first time, I was travelling along a certain road, when, suddenly, I felt that I was coming home. Researching my ancestory, I found some people who lived near, but not near enough! Until, one day, I was logging in ancestors to my Genes Tree. Then I realise that one particular ancestor appeared 12 times! 12 times! And he live right beside the place where I felt I was coming home! Funny how you get a feeling, good or otherwise, about a place!

All the Best in your searches,
Lindy.