General Chat

"I wont deny that many clergy do a good job, if you are a member of their congregation and believe in what they preach. "


Hmmmm.........thinking about our vicar who, in his pinny, makes and serves a weekly hotpot to.......let me think now........the local hairdressers, police, council workers, car valet folk, elderly lonely folk.....most of whom never set foot over the church doorstep........and the only thing that is 'pushed down their throats' is hotpot. :-D


Then, he takes his pinny off and dashes to the crematorium to take a service for someone else who never set foot in church but whose family wants some sort of comfort.


Having done that, he drives back and visits someone who is terminally ill and needs a reassuring hand to hold.


Back into the car and off to chair the school governors meeting to discuss Child Protection issues.



Quick meal and off to a wedding rehearsal - non-churchgoers. Finishes that, goes into meeting room to a baptism preparation class.......mostly non churchgoers but who want their children baptised.



On Monday evenings he scribbles away whilst a high percentage of non-churchgoers literally pour through his front door requesting baptisms and marriages.

He did get a little frustrated last week though, when a couple asked for a marriage on a certain date. It really was a case of "no can do". It is the church flower festival and he already has two other weddings booked in. This couple had arranged everything else and left the church till last.......



Of course you'll remain unconvinced Eldrick my friend.......but, there again, one never knows...........


I still believe in miracles........... :-D





Suzanne, cut the bells and extras out....they are not essential to a marriage ceremony. It's the vows that count. ;-)

Looking at it from a slightly different angle, I was interested in helping out at a local food bank. I was 'put off' by the fact that it was run by a church, and, although I'm sure I would have been welcomed, I didn't want a 'hidden agenda' of church teaching/persuasion etc. This may be wrong of me, as I know that they provide food boxes to anyone in need, regardless of their beliefs - so probably my problem and my loss!!!!

Hi Cyn

I would never deny that many clergy, mullahs, rabbis and priests are hard working and kind people.

But.......well. I think you've hit the nail on the head. If it wasn't for non churchgoers, the Church of England wouldn't survive. There remains a vestige of tradition in as much as many people 'feel' they should get married, baptised and buried in churches. This is dwindling, as people evolve and become more critical and free thinking. There are more places springing up every year to conduct licensed and civil ceremonies for marriage. More humanist funerals and fewer christenings. Congregations in the CoE are plummeting, although the happy clappy places and mosques seem to be doing not so bad. So, as far as business and income generation goes, purely to survive the church needs to keep attracting non churchgoers to it's rituals and charging them big bucks.

There's a big concern at the moment regarding church marriages and people who are getting married purely to benefit their immigration status. One vicar was jailed only a couple of months ago for this. It's a major problem and, for me, it highlights the fact that the church is mainly conducting weddings as a source of income generation. Perhaps they should stick to only marrying churchgoers? I don't know and I couldn't care less, but it's just another example of the blinding hypocrisy of the church and also of people who go there for the reasons you mention and never set foot in between times, yet call themselves christians.

So yes, I'm sure you have a hard working and caring vicar. And I'm sure he is a very nice person, but I wonder why on earth he is serving hot pot to the police and other people who aren't destitute or living on the streets and are perfectly capable of doing it for themselves....and as for clergy being involved in schools, I personally dislike that intensely. He doesn't need to be there nor should he be, in the same way as the bishops should get out of the house of lords. This is the 21st century!

And finally, yes, miracles can happen - but the last one was about 2,000 years ago so we are probably due a one some time soon. Don't hold your breath though!

:-D :-D

I have to say this. What a refreshing debate thread where there are definitely differences of opinion but no aggravation. The thread makes for a very interesting and informative read.

Hmmm - I notice the second post hasn't been reinstated.


xxxxx mick

I cant remember what it was but yes, now you mention it....still, thank god for small mercies, eh.

:-D

Good to see complete thread, when I went off line yesterday
you were still rr'd. Having read through the thread found it very
interesting and enjoyed the debate.
A usual question from me Eldrick were your parents/grandparents
believers, were you brought up in the faith?

Emma

No more than anyone else - certainly wasnt a part of my upbringing, havent got any relatives who were particularly religious.

I just got to realising how much intereference the church(es) try to have in everyday life, thought about it, asked myself about what it was all about, applied critical thinking and came to the logical conclusion that there was not one ounce of substance to any of it.

Then weighed up the benefits compared to the sheer misery, violence, hypocrisy and suffering caused by it all and it didn't take long to see which way the scales were tilting. Now I would defy anyone to tell me one single benefit of religion that cannot be achieved in a secular manner. By benefit I dont mean a belief that you will go to heaven when you die if you are a good person on earth. I mean a tangible here and now benefit.

But on the other hand, there is a massive, almost infinite list of harm and suffering and cruelty and war and death and destruction and poverty caused by the belief in the supernatural and the conviction that my god is better than your god and if you dont agree I will kill you. Or even my way of worshipping the same god as you have is better and so I will kill you because you are doing it the wrong way.

Whew. So there! lol

I can offer you one benefit - laughter :-D

The late elderly reverend in our church (we lived next door to it) in a very small hamlet provided huge amusement every Sunday.

He used to regularly 'drop' his sermon papers and would bend down behind the pulpit to retrieve them.

I couldn't understand when I first attended why there was a lot of sniggering by the very small congregation when he did this. The church warden who was the neighbour on the other side of us informed me (with great glee) that each time the reverend was picking up his sermon he was also having a quick 'nip' from his hip flask :-D :-D :-D

Oh go on then my friend....hurl a few counter arguments at me and move a few goalposts on the way........nice to know that people are enjoying our little tete-a-tete ;-)


Hokay, "If it weren't for non-churchgoers the Church of England wouldn't survive.............many people 'feel' they should get married in church".

Yep, wedding and funerals generate some income........but we certainly couldn't rely on it. There are churches who don't have many weddings or funerals but still function.


If people 'feel' they should get married in church........fine.....if they don't, there are, as you so rightly say.....plenty of other options. They certainly don't stut down the aisle with their arms up their backs because of 'pressure' to have a church wedding. They can look just as glamorous in a civil ceremony. :-D



Church funerals? No pressure to have them in church either and the feeling that we MUST go to church is dying out. If folk want to have a humanist funeral - no prob. May as well stick to their way of life right to the end if that's what they want.


Baptisms.......there is no charge for a baptism and I don't know where your info comes from - depends which website/paper your reading perhaps - do a buy a proper paper Eldrick - but they certainly ain't dwindling round here! Inundated we are-constantly. In fact, I am beginning to wonder if everyone's telly is on the blink...... ;-)


We hold baptism preparation classes in which I am involved. We explain what is involved in the service and what baptism is all about. Parents have the option to opt out if they are uncomfortable about things. That rarely happens..........guess I must be doing a reasonable job..... :-D


Am worn out.....have to keep scrolling back up to see your next point......(should be dusting the bedrooms really but this is more entertaining)


The immigration/clergy issue is positively embarrassing and I certainly can't explain why they did it.......but I do wish they would behave professionally. .Wipes face with damp cloth. I notice you mentioned the vicar who got jailed but not the vicar who got murdered........and there have been a few of those....... :-)


"....and also of people who go there for the reasons you mention and never set foot in between times, yet call themselves christians".


That can be a fair point. There are people who call themsevles Christians when what they really mean is that they are Humanists. They are nice, kind, caring people who are good to their neighbours and wouldn't hurt the proverbial fly. Christ, however, doesn't come into their everyday thinking. Big difference.


The Vicar and hotpot........many of those who go are elderly and live on their own. They enjoy a meal cooked for them and good company. The police call in as part of mixing with the community. The council men get their meal for free because they help to maintain the paths round and about. Presumably the others come because they like the food.......
:-D


How am I doing so far??? :-D


Vicars and schools.......it stands to reason that if it is a church school, then the vicar is involved in some way. They don't necessarily have to be the chair of governors but they need to keep a finger on the pulse of what is going on.......his name is 'over the door' so to speak. We must be doing okay.........at the last Ofsted report we were awarded an Excellent status and are, apparently in the top 8% in the country.



He IS a nice chap....you're quite right. He's also a flippin hardworker. He was the main driving force behind raising £1m. to build a sports pavilion for the community. It is under the church name and provides facilities for rugby, cricket, football......conferences, parties, weddings.....etc.etc. It is very well used and I would consider that to be church outreach........



Bishops in the House of Lords? As far as I am concerned, a couple would be fine - just to represent the interests of the 'state' religion. Otherwise, I wish they would get back to their dioceses and be the Father in God they are supposed to be.


Miracles?......flippin'eck Eldrick my friend, you really need to get up to date on things. Last one 2,000 years ago? Go do some reading about more recent ones......not that you will believe what you read of course..... ;-)



I love it when you use the word 'blinding'.......makes me think of a certain chap named Saul! :-D :-D



Gonna get me lunch before I get worn out........~~~~~~~ <3




Sheila, definitely your loss love. There are many churches doing good work without a hidden agenda. Give it a go....you may enjoy yourself. :-D

The problem with a belief in a particular dogma , be it one of the main religions or any other, is that it inevitably attracts those who prefer not to have to think for themselves...now that sounds very insulting, lol but it isn't meant to be ...what I mean is that if I adhere to the JWs way of life for eg , it is all set out there for me in black and white, there is no other way and that is no doubt very comforting to know that someone else is looking out for you and as long as you do the 'right' things all will be well.

In secular terms that equates to always following a particular political party ( because you always have) only watching the BBC because it is the channel you have always watched or reading the Sun because 'if the paper says so it must be true" .

There will always be people who feel more comfortable with what they know... even Aetheists ;-), to 'question' is to feel either at sea or disloyal, uncertain, in an already very uncertain world.

There is Eldrick as you say an "almost infinite list of harm and suffering and cruelty and war and death and destruction and poverty caused by the belief in the supernatural"...

The same is caused by greed, selfishness and the desire for power...that is what we are. The 'religion' ( whichever it is) that is used as an excuse for the ills you name is just that, an excuse. I don't honestly believe the world would be better if no one believed in God...it would be the same because 'we' would be the same. ( which is a depressing thought lol)

Cynthia :-D I think you have earnt a rest now.

Can somebody tell me, do the free churches charge for weddings these days. When I got married our Baptist church didn't charge, I think we may have given the organist something, (although it may not have been money, probably flowers.) Poor old dear she was about 80 (really) and used to make cracking mistakes but we loved her and wouldn't have hurt her feelings.

Question.. ( the 'you' is a general 'you')

.do you give alms to the poor, succour to the hungry, aid to the sick...because of some logical thought process that tells you it is necessary to keep a balanced and comfortable society?

Or because that is what your parents taught you to do?

Or because the spirit of God moves within you ?

;-) answers on a postcard while I eat my toast

On a lighter note...............

A minister decided that a visual demonstration would add emphasis
to his sermon.

Four worms were placed into four separate jars.
First worm was put into a container of alcohol.
Second into a container of cigarette smoke.
Third into a container of chocolate syrup.
Fourth into a container of good, clean soil.
The minister reported the following results:
First worm in alcohol....Dead
Second in cigarette smoke....Dead
Third in chocolate syrup....Dead
Fourth in good,clean soil....Alive.
So the minister asked the congregation what they had learnt
from the demonstration.
An old lady at the back of the church said, "As long as you drink,
smoke and eat chocolate you won't get worms!"
That pretty much ended the service!!

Emma

Golden Girl :-D :-D

GoldenGirl1 :-0 :-D :-D

Roy

Emma :-D :-D :-D

Hi Cyn

You are using your one church as a shining example. I dont doubt for one moment any of the things you are saying, but that doesnt make them right or the exclusive property of the PR arm of the CoE.

Of course there's no charge for baptisms - its not hard to work out why! But the collection plate is still there - give us your money, paper preferably :-)

Murdered vicars? Where is the connection between criminal vicars and murdered vicars? It is a tragedy when anyone loses their life, but no more a tragedy for a vicar to be murdered than someones son, daughter, husband or wife. It's all equally tragic, so I dont see how you can posit any connection at all. I mention the marriage scam as an example of the church being hungry for money.

State religion? That one makes me shudder! A religion imposed and endorsed by the state is far too medieval for my taste - and many others. If it was a democratic election thing, would there be bishops be in the HoL? I think not. In the next 50 years we will see a full separation of church and state as people start to think for themselves.

Anyway, I have said it many times, the CoE is the benign face of religion. It is cuddly and nice and full of tea and biscuits and fetes and nice people who like to wear nice hats and new clothes on Sundays. It is only when I look at the doctrrines and rituals that I start to feel queasy! Making hotpot for the police doesn't make it right. You can do that without wearing a dog collar.

RR - Historically - and currently - there far more death and destruction being wrought by religion than by big business and corporate greed, although maybe they are not that far apart. Even if they were equal, that doesnt excuse anything. Sunnis killing shi'ites, jews and arabs killing each other, until recently catholics and protestants in Ireland, Bosnia, the holocaust, execution of gay men in iran and other places, 9/11, Angola, Uganda, and on and on and on. And that is only a fraction of it. The inquisition, crusades, withcraft trials, heretics, vatican support of the nazi regime, anti semitism, the lives lost, the suffering, the misery, cruelty, torture and horrors inflicted on the human race are endless. In the name of what and to what purpose?

And people still believe in this. Even in the 21st century, people turn a blind eye and still go along with it all. I am afraid religion is in denial.

As for the alms question - I give considerable amounts to charity, but I'm very selective as to which ones. I don't crow about it and dont make a fuss. As soon as I hear someone boasting about how much they give to this charity or that charity, I switch off. They are doing it for the wrong reason. I believe that human beings are naturally altruistic in nature and to suggest that altruism is learnt from religion is incorrect, not to mention insulting towards good people who have no belief in the supernatural. Not that you are suggesting that, I hasten to add, but it is a common argument from the church. Dawkins devotes a full chapter to it in The God Delusion.

I don't normally get involved in debating any religious matters but i am basically in Eldricks camp on this subject,

I see lots of post on several web sites about the "God is great" syndrome
Please forgive me if that offends any one it's not my intentions but just the way i personally see it,

My question is simple, Why are the worst troubled places on earth countries where the majority are devout believers in ( a ) religion ?



Roy

Most of what is on here is true,However people believe what they think is best for them,sadly others try to indoctrinate their beliefs on others ,which to me is wrong,In most cases today re religeon its, a case of Hatch, Match and despatch and that is theonly time they attend a church. then of course there is the other religeon who tell you that If you become a "Martre" you will be given 17 dusky eyed virgins as a reward.sounds interesting. ;-)