General Chat

EACH TO OUR OWN OPINION ISNT IT

Well, not George Osbourne, who picked today of all days, to come to Derby, of all places and make the inflamatory speech he did, regarding Phillpot and every body on benefits. How crass and how low can anyone get.

Julia in Derbyshire

Not when he says in plain English that racism is the basis of nationality with the implication that it's fine, Gwen

How on earth can you interpret that differently? Please explain because I can't see any other interpretation.

I said quite clearly that in the context of Wolverhampton in 1950's, Powell was no racist. There were race riots in Dudley, which I think were the first race riots against black people - before then it had been mainly the Jews. He was very statesmenlike and incrediby careful with his words.

Just look at this that I wiki'd and remember that Denis Healey was a communist pre 1952 election and the complete opposite end of the political spectrum to Powell. Black people were then considered by many to be a sub-human species.

"On 27 July 1959, Powell gave his speech on the Hola Camp of Kenya, where eleven Mau Mau were killed after refusing work in the camp. Powell noted that some MPs had described the eleven as "sub-human", but Powell responded by saying: "In general, I would say that it is a fearful doctrine, which must recoil upon the heads of those who pronounce it, to stand in judgement on a fellow human being and to say, 'Because he was such-and-such, therefore the consequences which would otherwise flow from his death shall not flow'."Powell also disagreed with the notion that because it was in Africa, different methods were acceptable:

Nor can we ourselves pick and choose where and in what parts of the world we shall use this or that kind of standard. We cannot say, 'We will have African standards in Africa, Asian standards in Asia and perhaps British standards here at home'. We have not that choice to make. We must be consistent with ourselves everywhere. All Government, all influence of man upon man, rests upon opinion. What we can do in Africa, where we still govern and where we no longer govern, depends upon the opinion which is entertained of the way in which this country acts and the way in which Englishmen act. We cannot, we dare not, in Africa of all places, fall below our own highest standards in the acceptance of responsibility.

Denis Healey, a member of parliament from 1952 to 1992, later said this speech was "the greatest parliamentary speech I ever heard... it had all the moral passion and rhetorical force of Demosthenes". The Daily Telegraph report of the speech said that "as Mr Powell sat down, he put his hand across his eyes. His emotion was justified, for he had made a great and sincere speech"

Tony Wedgewood Benn was a fantastic politician and a magnificent orator

OKAY WILL TRY TO EXPLAIN
YOU QUOTED
racism is the basis of nationality
NOT COLOUR OF SKIN
BUT NATIONALITY

NOT COLOUR

That makes no sense to me at all. Racism is an evil whether based on colour, culture or nationality.

Prejudice is prejudice.

WELL WE HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS

DONT WE,OUR OWN INTERPRETATION

I suppose we do - just can't understand how you reach your conclusion that racism is ok.

HANG ON A MO DID I SAY THAT,I STILL ADMIRE
ENOCH AND SO DO OTHERS ON HERE,WHAT I DO BELIEVE
IS RACISUM IS NOT JUST COLOUR,

I didn't say racism was just about colour. No idea why you assumed that.

I don't admire self-confessed racists like Enoch Powell. You do. As you say different opinions.

Labels get bandied about on here and it can often be a problem of semantics. Paulo di Canio is called a fascist (and that might be a translation problem to a degree) and I have been called a Nazi by more than one poster because I have always supported Plaid Cymru - the party for Wales.

Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior. The attitude towards black people in the early days of immigration was based on the belief that, at best, they were less intelligent than white people and, at worst, they were not fully human. Enoch Powell debunked that myth in his speech about the Mau Mau deaths I quoted earlier.

Nationalism is a belief system, creed or political ideology that involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a nation. Thus, when we support England, Scotland, France or Ireland that is an expression of our nationalism

Nazism (National Socialism) claims that an Aryan master race is superior to all other races. Hence one form of the racism that Powell detested.

By the way, if anybody wants to rr me for my comment about attitudes in 1950's and 1960's, those attitudes were propped up by both prejudice and academic tomes. When deaths like these Mau Mau terrorists occured (or the ANC uprising) there was an assumption they were worthless insurgents in those days. One of the "inferior" rebels was, of course, Nelson Mandela.

I was taught in Geography A level that the "black man was a better athlete but had an inferior intellect". I can remember thinking that is wrong, but it was 1963 and no one in my class challenged the statement. Just wrote it down as a fact. :-(

isn't Wikipedia a fantastic resource!

DUNNO ERROL
DO YOU USE IT OFTEN

I DONT AS YOU CAN TELL

Why does every reply, on every thread, have to be a lecture. Anybody would think us, the masses, were a bunch of uneducated ignoramii. B****y well sick of it. Spoils everybodies threads, and is utterly boring.

Julia in Derbyshire

Dizzi I find it great to refer to for background information or if I just need to check something out

JULIA
WAS MEANT FOR FUN IT GOT POLITICAL :-D :-D :-D :-D

A thread with "Politician" in the title is likely to get political, I'd have thought.

Dizzi, it should have stayed fun, and not had great swathes of Wikepedia c &p' d onto it.

Julia in Derbyshire