General Chat

I work voluntarily one day a week in a local Junior school with children aged from 4+ to 11. I see the children at various times during the day. They are all well behaved because they are well and correctly disciplined. It can sometimes be difficult for teachers to control a class of unruly disruptive 10 year old's. Unless you have been in this situation it is impossible to understand the stress of teaching unruly children - especially if there's inadequate support from the school hierarchy or from parents.

One could argue that today's parents who were disciplined but not physically punished as children, had good education and have still grown up with respect for their elders. They may now have a good job, and are able to discipline their own children effectively. Maybe there are some lessons to be learned.

The parents of disruptive children should certainly be informed and explained that they need to discipline them for misbehaving. A teacher should never physically hurt the children in his/ her care. EVER.  

I was educated in Scotland in the 1950's and when you misbehaved, teachers used the tawse to point out the error of your ways. It did not matter whether you were a boy or a girl, most times it was boys who were the culprits - I would add this was at secondary school as I do not recall the tawse being used at my primary school.

You held your hands out placing one hand on top of the other, depending on the severity of what you had done, you got between one and six strokes on the palm of the hands. One thing you tended not to do, was tell your mum or dad. as the likelihood was they would give you a good slap or a severe telling off.

I think, if anything, it did not make me fear my teachers, it made me realise who was in charge and that being disruptive was not acceptable.

However although the use of the tawse was acceptable at the time I was at school, one thing that would not have been acceptable, even back then, would be a teacher taping up pupils mouths :-|

Lack of discipline, respect, and manners, is often a problem in this day and age and sadly is not just restricted to teenagers.

Sharron, i never said you had,

My point is and was that you can discipline children without violence,

You can also discipline adults without violence,

They are two separete things

We are all in a system that we are compelled to live in and not all areas of our society suit everyone, Thats life

Roy

Having, I listened to the head of the school and a couple of parents comments about what happened, I thought how well they all expressed themselves, teacher is suspended, head is looking into the matter, he has spoken to the parents, all as it should be. Having been Chair of Governors for a good few years, had this happened at the school I was Governor at. it sounds like everything is being done to resolve the issue. We don't know the state of mind of the teacher, perhaps he/she has problems at home, nothing to do with school, perhaps the children are all great kids, and the teacher flipped, he/she may be under some strain, but if that's the case they need time away from school.

A teacher at my sons school, once did something to my son that I wasn't comfortable with, I went to see the head, who told me that my son could be "rather talkative" I agreed wholeheartedly with him, he then said that I could have no idea what it was like to be in a class, where children were talkative, yes I could actually, one of my foster children went to a school where normal behaviour was to throw a chair through a window, and I often visited, he then said that the teacher I wasn't happy with, had just returned from having a second breakdown, and sometimes the boys got too much, to say my gasp was flabbered was an understatement, if she wasn't able to handle a class of 12 year olds without grabbing them, then she should still be on sick leave.

Caring for children isn't for everyone, I know some wonderful teachers, who deal with the most difficult children, I have been head butted, bitten and bruised by some of the children I have had in my charge, but never have I resorted to hitting or taping there mouths shut, yes I've been taken to the edge, but never gone over it, if I thought I might, I'd have got a new job.

I've seen too may children scarred for life for being abused, either physically or mentally, discipline is one thing beatings are another.

We have had a pedagogic method of education in place for nearly two hundred years now, ever since institutionalised education was introduced to teach a more compliant working class to suit industrialised society.

Society has moved on in two hundred years, we are no longer heavily industrialised. Maybe the radical change that was implemented to accommodate the change from agrarian society to an industrialised regime needs to be matched again by a different approach to learning.

Isn't formal education pedagogic by definition?

It is as it is carried out now and has been since it's inception but it is only one way of learning.

It was the method of education that was suited those who were financing and debating it and they were the ones who were in need of the workforce it was intended to provide.

The needs of society, the structure of society has changed radically in that time but no other method of education has ever been properly explored.

I think there are many methods of education being utilised in the UK.

There are some very innovative approaches - some of which have been around for some time.

But that is not the issue. A percentage of pupils have become disengaged, disinterested, disenfranchised, and one of the biggest factors is that they are receiving neither the support nor the discipline that they should at home.

As pointed out earlier on this thread (I think it was Roy) we are now seeing a second generation coming through the education system whose parents have been brought up in a society that is more fearful of meting out discipline and is also far more materialistic and disposable.

These parents do not have the respect that was once instilled at a very early age and so how can they be expected to pass those core values onto their offspring.

The teachers are not to blame. The parents most certainly are!

Go into any school (primary or secondary) and throughout the course of the day you will hear at least one child say "You can't tell me off or do that because I know my rights".

Brenda Sorry I wasnt suggesting you was, it was the vibe I had picked up on, as for the rest of your post I agree 100 % :-D

Children are no longer expected to conform to the situation they are presented with in school. They are not being prepared for a life where they need to conform and they do know their rights as children have never known before, indeed as no individuals have known before.

Adults no longer toe the line and show respect that has not been earned.

Power has shifted in society, it is expressed in a different way.

Our education system was implemented to teach that one individual would have power over a number of others and that it was right that they should. This is no longer so.

The media in this case are only reporting one side of this case,,,,,,,,how do we what caused the situation with this class of juniors,,,,,,,it may have been all done in a lighthearted way and reports back to mum and dad have blown it all out of proportion,

That is a problem which should be addressed in the home.

If children are not taught to conform at home how on earth can they be expected to conform when they are at school?

I didn't say that children genuinely know their rights.

Kay I totally agree and tried to say earlier that we may not know the whole or real story.

It sells copy!

Hayley...I always thought that working class people always had better manners than rich ones..we always said that as in my day there was no money to give us all we would have liked...but we were happy.

I agree with Errol that it is the political system we are against..that is why in every aspect in the workplace compensation culture is to blame in so many cases.

As regards teaching...I used to teach piano..not in a school,but privately,and teachers have to learn to come to the level of the pupil and have lots of patience..so all the knowledge in the world in your own head does not make a good teacher unless you can make sure your pupils understand.

Those are the teachers who are respected..doesn't matter by what method as long as it works.

That is the crux of the matter Brenda. Children want to learn but they need it to be their learning not the teachers teaching.

The respect follows the learning.

A good parent doesnt make a good child.

Would anyone want to revert to times when it was the norm to cane or slipper school children?there other human methods that work and have a greater impact.

I think the vast majority of teachers realise that and do a fine job under very difficult circumstances.

The fact remains that there is often a serious lack of parents facing up to the basic requirements - due in part to the fact that they have themselves been brought up in a society where values have dropped and it is always "someone else's fault".

Parents are all too often very quick to blame teachers when they should instead be looking inwardly. Teachers are there to teach subjects, not take on the rôle of parents who are either too lazy or too dim to realise that as a parent they should be teaching core values that will equip young people with the tools they need to get on in life.

The teacher was out of order and earns a suspension if she taped up just one child's mouth, let alone most of the class.

I work with large classes, a few children are difficult to manage at times.

Their parents are mostly very supportive and work hand in hand with the school to improve the behavioral issues, so blaming every child with issues on their parents is unfair on those who try really hard to resolve the problems.

We aren't perfect parents, like everyone else we have made mistakes along the way, but were lucky to have children who were almost always well behaved at school.

When they weren't and came home telling us they were told off about something, we reinforced the reprimand and made sure to go in the next morning to hear the other side of the story.

Well said KittytheLearner Cook,

The headmaster of this school sent a letter to parents stating that it was an ' unacceptable incident.'... so, we should assume that he knows more than we do...

It is alleged that the teacher lined up 20 children and taped up their mouths and even did it again to those that pulled off the tape.....

If this is so I would think that there was nothing 'lighthearted' about it or in a 'red mist' moment that may have involved just one of the children...

Whether we hear the outcome of this remains to be seen.

That's what rang the alarm bells Joeva, the number of children and retaping several of them.