General Chat

Thanks Suecar. Will do.

Hi katqueen
I like looking at the old maps of Liverpool.
If you copy & paste this link into your browser:

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolaz/L9.htm

you can see the portion of the map with Cazneau Street on.

I'll take your advice and give it a rest for a while and then come back to it. Thank you so much again for all your help.

I would never say never ... finding someone can take a long time even if they can eventually be found ...

in my own case I kept searching widely and wildly around for something for several years ... until one day I found an online tree to which a surname I was looking for had just been added ... and sure enough it turned out to be the great-grandchild of my ancestor's brother

sometimes the back burner is called for though :-)

I wonder if they took the rooms after Ann died and Thomas was in the workhouse. In November of 1911 he appears to have come out of the workhouse to his mothers address at 47 Upper Beau Street and within a week was back in again. I think the search for what happened to Sarah seems pretty hopeless don't you? I still wonder if the suggestion someone made of her being a child sent abroad as part of the emigrant scheme is the most likely but it seems impossible to follow that up. Do you think I should admit defeat? :-(

one can imagine the paper :-)

1911 at 152 Victoria Square Liverpool, Scotland sub dist

Name: John Edward Dunn
Age in 1911: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1885
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 152 Victoria Square Cazneau Street Liverpool
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Cotton Seect [seed] Mill Labourer
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Scotland

John Edward Dunn 26
Mary Dunn 25 married 6 years, 5 children born 3 living
Ellen Dunn 5 (June Q 1905)
Mary Abagail Dunn 4 (March Q 1907)
John Dunn 8/12

in 2 rooms

likely married Sep Q 1904 Liverpool
not likely co-occupying in 1905-6

First of all can I than you very much for all that research. I really do appreciate it. May I say though that I am not deliberately withholding bits of the jigsaw that would help you. You do not realise how huge the jigsaw is.I have tried to include what I thought was relevant to each question. I actually have 10 A4 pages of the records of the whereabouts of the Meadley family in relation to there times in and out of 2 different workhouses and 4 different cottage homes. Between 16/8/1902 and 22/101909 Thomas Meadley was in the workhouse a total of 24 times, Ann Meadley21,Mary Ann11 and in 4 different cottage homes and Sarah7 times and in 2 cottage homes. The records are missing between 1909&1911 but then show that Ann died in Highfield Infirmary( part of the workhouse ) and was buried on march 29th 2011, Mary Ann wasput in Fazakerly Cottage Homes And Sarah in Olive Mount Cottage homes where they both appear in the 1911 census. Thomas continued in and out of the workhouse for the rest of his life. During the period 16/8/1902 and22/10/1909 they llived in 13 different addresses all in Liverpool. Holly Street was where they lived when they were married and when Mary Ann was born but this address is not mentioned again. I won't list all the addresses but can tell you that at the presumed time of Sarah's conception they were either in the workhouse or at 152 Victoria Square together which is why I was surprised not to see Thomas named as the father and prompted my "general enquiry" at the start of this thread. Short of listing the whole details of 10 A4 pages I don't feel there are any other parts of the jigsaw I can give you.

Sarah Cimmering in Enfield was Sarah Midloursky married 1932 Hackney

Sarah Holdage in Beverley ... more difficult to be sure ... probably Sarah Elvidge married 1934 Beverley

Sarah McEniff in Stockport was Sarah Davin married 1939 Liverpool

Sarah Ratcliffe in Stockport is too difficult to guess


Births Sep 1906
Davin Sarah Toxteth Park 8b 157

rules that one out

well if you recall we suggested the search of deaths by birthdate once you knew the birthdate ... which you didn't until you got the birth certificate :-) so you couldn't do that search then ...

I don't know the history or geography but it does seem that 'Scotland' is a sub-district of Liverpool district

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/Reg/districts/liverpool.html

perhaps it does refer to the Scotland Road area?


so after 1969 there were 13 Sarahs died with dob of 10 June 1906

although 4 of them had Sarah as a middle name so that leaves 9

2 in Stockport and 2 in Lancaster are closest geographically

of them only the 2 in Stockport had no middle name

but there are also one in Beverley and one in Enfield with no middle name

but odds are probably that she died before then I guess ... or of course that she or the informant of her death never knew her correct birthdate


in 1911 16 Thistle Terrace Rose Place was occupied by

Name: William Guy
Age in 1911: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation to Head: Head
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Name: Sarah Guy
Age in 1911: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation to Head: Wife
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 16 Thistle Terrace Rose Place Lpool
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Carter General
Registration district: Liverpool
Registration District Number: 453
Sub-registration district: Scotland

married 8 years, 0 childrenprobably

Marriages Dec 1904
Gavin Sarah Liverpool 8b 29
Guy William Liverpool 8b 29

so they would not have been there in 1901 and anytime in between would be unknown

but the Meadley couple were living in Holly Street 'around the time of conception'?

you keep holding pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that you don't turn over so we can see them ...

Good morning. Gave up last night but on the case again this morning! Looked back at the thread where you and Brummiejan suggested searching deaths JoonieCloonie and you will see that I did look but found nothing. I also followed your advice and sent for Sarah's birth certificate which is the one I have just received that lists no name for the father. It does however give me the full birth date which is 10th June 1906 and birth address is 16 Thistle Terrace, Rose Place. It was registered on16th August and does contain something I don' t understand. Under Registration District it says 'Birth in the sub district of Scotland in the County of Liverpool ' That doesn't make sense as a) Liverpool was a city at that time in the County of Lancashire and b)to my knowledge there was no sub district of Liverpool called Scotland although there was an area called Scotland Road. Can you throw any light on that please? Haven't had a chance to research possible links regarding the birth address yet but will be on to it asap.

this is why I have always hated 'general questions' ... it just isn't possible to suggest answers without the actual facts ... best to ask those questions in the thread they relate to?

so if you look in the 1911 census for the address on Sarah 1906's birth certificate, let us know if you find anything tasty :-)


......... I remember now that I see the name ... she was registered as Meadly

and we had another of those 'general questions' about her not long ago .........

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1338460?page=1

... where I suggested the birthdate search of deaths!

if you want some help with that search just post up her date of birth

.......... and I'm sure you won't delete any other threads now!

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1338170

(where brummiejan had suggested the birthdate search of deaths)

Thank you Joonie. Sorry for the gap in responding but I had to leave the computer for a bit. The address on the birth certificate is completely different from any address given over a period of about 14 years from when they married in 1897 to the date of the last workhouse records I have. I have asked for help with this family previously but as this thread started with a general question didn't want to risk upsetting anyone by mentioning the names again as I was given a lot of help regarding this family on a previous thread. However as you have asked. Thomas Meadley and Anna Lloyd married in1897 and lived in Holly Street, Everton where their first daughter Mary Ann was born in 1902. I have never been able to find a birth certificate for her but do have a record of her baptism. During research through Liverpool Record Office I discovered that the family spent years in and out of the workhouse and unknown previously to me had a second daughter Sarah in 1906. Ann died in 1911and Thomas in1946 and Mary Ann ,the mother of the friend for whom I am researching was in Fazakerley Cottage homes until she went into service. She never mentioned having a sister so we are unsure if she even knew of her existence. The last information I have re Sarah is in Olive Mount Home in the 1911 census and then she vanishes. I sent for her birth certificate to check if Thomas was her father but obviously not. Understand now whatZZzzz meant and will follow up both lots of suggestions asap. TThank you both so much.

Thank you JoonieCloonie, that is what I meant, you explained it much better than I did. :-)

I think what ZZzzz is getting at ... you said

'Workhouse records show that they were living at the same address at around the time of conception'

that is, the parents were living together around the time of conception?

that address - the one where the parents were living together around the time of conception - have you checked that address in the 1911 census to see who was there in that year?

I would add, is there an address for the mother on the child's birth certificate, and have you checked that address in the 1911 as well? (of course if the address on the certificate is the workhouse ...)

we are having to use descriptions of people and places since we don't have the names and addresses and that is perfectly understandable if you prefer not to say them but it can make questions and answers less clear :-)

and I wonder whether you saw my suggestion about searching the deaths index ...

The workhouse records just give the husbands address as inmate in Walton workhouse and the 2 children's addresses are as inmates in 2 different cottage homes.

The workhouse records just give the husbands address as inmate in Walton workhouse and the 2 children's addresses are as inmates in 2 different cottage homes.

Is the address they have given, the one on the workhouse records the same as the one around the time of conception, that's the one I meant for you to check out to see who else may have been there IE were they lodgers, maybe the head of the household was the child's grandparents.

Sorry I'm not very good at explaining myself.

Will try the death records especially as I cannot find any marriage records. In answer toZZzzz as said earlier her mother was dead by 1911 census and her mothers husband and sister in the workhouse so there are no leads there.

Have you typing in the address that they gave that is on the 1911 census to see who else may have been living there?

she could well have lived until 1970 when birthdates began to be recorded in the GRO deaths index

have you tried searching the index by given name (with middle name or initial if any) and the exact date of birth to see whether anything seems to match?

then it is a matter of trying to find a birth or marriage to account for each death and that is not always possible

and of course birthdates on death certificate are not always accurate (especially the year for people born in the early 1900s or before)

but it could be worth a try

even if she was taken in by a family, she would likely have kept her given name(s)