General Chat

"Children used to come into schools able to dress themselves, use a toilet, sit and listen and use a knife and fork. They usually knew their colours and their numbers and knew how to hold a pencil. Nowadays many can't."

In your opinion Gwynne, is this what we are reaping by now having young parents who, themselves, failed to get anywhere in the educational system, and whose parents failed to teach them simple things like how to use a knife and fork? And is this only going to get worse as the problem is perpetuated?

A neighbour of mine moaned about the poor standards of teaching where her 5-year old attends.

Apparently, after 3 months at the school, the pupil could not yet spell/write his own name.

I'm still not sure if the mum was 'pulling my leg'!

...being able to hold a pencil and use a knife and fork.....
My 7 year old grandson could do these things before he started school. Now he has started holding his knife like a pencil - he gets away with it at school - but it annoyed my daughter, and caused food to be pinged across the table, so she taped the knife to his hand in the 'proper' position!!
It only took one go - he realised the error of his ways, found it much easier, and holds it properly again!! :-D

I'm afraid so, Ann. So much time is spent in schools doing "crowd control" that should be spent teaching. I'm not sure it's just young parents though. Some parents really can't be bothered to make the effort to teach their children the things that our parents taught us before we got to school.

I'm disgusted by the number of children who start school in nappies these days. At one time Head Teachers used to insist that children were toilet trained and could refuse to admit them, they can't any more. That's just one example. Detective is right that too many parents and a few children know their rights without accepting their responsibilities.

It's only a small minority but that minority can take up a lot of time and distract schools from doing their proper job, which is teaching. Some LEAs have done away with "special schools" and allow all children into mainstream without putting the resources in to support the children or the teachers.

Teachers only have a limited time with each child and some quiet children get overlooked because of the children who demand attention.

Having said all that, most children are motivated and have supportive parents and they get through school just fine.

I am amazed, when eating out, at the number of teenagers, young and old, who are unable to hold a knife and fork properly. I watched one young lady the other day trying to cut up her food. She had no chance the way she was holding her cutlery. I actually wondered if she was left handed and didn't realise that she should have the knife and fork in different hands to her friends.

I wonder if it's because a lot of families just don't eat at the table at home, Ann. My left hander uses a knife and fork the right way because he didn't like to be different when he was little.

A lot of adults seem to eat with their fingers these days.

Putting aside SN, there could be a number of reasons a child can't use a knife and fork.
One which seems to repeat itself is the lack of space in modern homes. There just isn't room for a table to eat at - the occupants end up balancing their plates on their laps. Finger food, or other meals pre-cut at the kitchen work-top are easier to manage.

Not being able to write, or even attempt to write, their name must surely be the laziness of the parents. The vast majority of pre-schoolers attend nursery/playgroup who normally try to instil the basics in the last term. However, it does need the parents to encourage and reinforce the skill at home.

Donkey's years ago, I helped out at the local playgroup (learning through play) ever single one of the children were able to have a good stab at writing their name before they started school.
At that time, there weren't the free places there are now. Perhaps that's the difference - the parents had a vested interest in their children.

Good point, Detective.

As a slight aside. It is strange that I often wonder if it is because parents are young themselves these days so don't seem to have the ability to teach life skills to their children. then I think back to when I had my daughter, I was just 21, OH was 23. I remember my parents friends saying I looked too young to have a child. We had no playgroups or nurseries to send toddlers to so I had my daughter and subsequently my son 24/7. Daughter was toilet trained by 17 months and could read and write her name by the time she went to school at five years old. Son was not so inclined to learn to read early but recognised lettters and was toilet trained about the same age. Teaching them these things was the thing to do. (incidentally by the age of 7 they were both at the same reading age).

Maybe we have come to accept that children won't be toilet trained early, taught to dress themselves, read etc. so parents now don't feel the need. I have seen no attempt so far to toilet train our Great Grandson who is two now. His mother works in the nursery of the local hospital.

Ann, I think you may have hit the nail the head, when you say you had your children 24/7.
With so many mothers being forced back to work after 9 months, mainly due to economic reasons, when do they get the chance to toilet train etc?
Many only see their children in the evenings and at weekends, or for 2 days during the week if they're lucky enough to be able to work part time.

Skool is wildly overrated. For the most part in modern Britain its functions are (a) child minding (b) social training which is the responsibility of the parents (c) providing employment for the NUT most of whose members would not have a hope of earning the same money somewhere else.

It should not take 13 years to learn to read and write and carry out basic maths. As it is most of the adult population is innumerate and has a poor level of literacy. Hence the employers screaming like mad about the cutback on visas for highly skilled immigrants.

"When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of education
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away"

Paul Simon

*It should not take 13 years to learn to read and write and carry out basic maths.*

It doesn't for the majority.

*providing employment for the NUT most of whose members would not have a hope of earning the same money somewhere else.*

Other teaching unions are also available.

Teachers are leaving and managing to find other work quite easily. Every teacher I know who left teaching early found other, better paid work within weeks.

You're making things up again, Rollo.

I saw the programme and would like to know when the word 'like' began to be used as punctuation.

" I was, like, going to do that, like" ??????

I wondered why are the teachers were not correcting them? Then I heard a (young) teacher using the word 'like' in the exactly the same way :-|

Chris

I walked into a classroom once to find a list of 10 things on the board, for the children to do by the next lesson.
They all began:
You should of.......

Don't get me started on "should of" instead of "should have". It's everywhere.

One of my bugbears a well

One of our boys' school report had so many spelling mistakes in it that my wife corrected it in red ink and sent it back.

"It doesn't for the majority."

but apparently teachers need longer, should of read the book like?

Even in Scotland, once the redoubt of the formidable Highers, has managed to balls up this year's maths exam to the point that the pass mark has been dropped to 38%. Could do better?

The British economy is a giant Ponzi scheme fueled by property prices dragging in serious money from abroad. This is commonly thought of as Russians in Hampstead etc but mostly it is foreign funds holding quite ordinary British mortages.

This is slowly and surely rendering the Brits homeless in their own country. God help them all when the music stops. If people had a better comprehension of maths they might just understand what is going on. As it is the property treadmill aka "ladder" is thought of as a very good thing. It isn't.

Practically all primary school teacher are female and those with a decent maths A level let alone a degree are few and far between. Eleven is far too late to start getting a grip on the concept of number and understanding that it is not the same thing as arithmetic.

Some say, the English language is evolving. I say it's going 'to pot' - whatever that really means to the stranger just starting out trying to learn the language.

I pity them!

One teacher writes "should of" and you conclude that all teachers are similarly illiterate?