General Chat

"It is the US which will have to come and sort out a mess ...etc"

Will it wait for a couple of years as usual?

Inhuman!

Pain feels sharper when inflicted by their own kind.

and meantime nobody is reporting on the Yemen :-| :-|

the photographs in today are just bloody awful.......

but the reality is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06chhnr/newsnight-18092015

Some good news for a change.

http://www.lolwot.com/refugee-who-was-tripped-by-camerawomen-lands-job-in-spain/

"The countries currently effected didn't realise the scale. "

Of course they did this sort of thing has happened again and again in eastern Europe and the near middle east over the last hundred years and several times in living memory most recently during the break up of FRYU.

Kosovo? Srebenica?

The excuse then was variations on don't know, won't know, was made to know. Hundreds of thousands died all the same while "leaders" in Europe ponced around before the Americans (as usual) sorted it out. It is the US which will have to come and sort out a mess largely of European making this time too.

Then there is the fairly well known Hungary uprising in 1956, the forced emigration of Germans from the Sudetenland and Poland in 1945-8, the Armenia massacre, the forced emigration of Turks and Greeks in 1923, the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, Greek civil war 1948, Russian forced deportations from Crimea and Ukraine 1945-52, Palestine forced emigration 1945-now, Trieste 1946, German flight from under the guns of the Red Army 1945. None of it very nice and mostly ignored in countries far far away of which they knew nothing.

It is not the job of the leaders of democracies to do what the electorate thinks it wants. Their job is to lead (F D Roosevelt).

About 10 years ago, there were many refugees, who came to Kent via Dover, I used to see many on the motorways surrounding us. I used to assist the Police with them, and for a while it was a daily occurrence.

But you cannot compare the volume of refugees we saw to what is happening over Europe now.

Bournemouth knew that is was going to happen months ago. The countries currently effected didn't realise the scale.

Bournemouth is putting up with around 3 000 marauding football fans (and up) arriving by every which way on alternate Saturdays, something it is very unused to. The "Cherries" have never been in the PL before.

There is no budget for the policing problems, South West Trains have no capacity and the main road into the town is half shut for reconstruction.

As the football fans (as they call themselves) have serious money and muscle their impact on the town is rather greater than knackered refugees would be.

All the same life goes on.

Detective is on the button that the problem is now and not something that can be kicked down the road with a series of meetings and good lunches. As the weather is worsening and the fighting intensifying the situation can only deteriorate,

The Balkan states can and have managed extremely well to facilitate the progress of refugees northwards. The Greeks and Italians have both moved mountains with scant help form the rest of the EU. Greece has its own problems but nevertheless has done what it could.

For those unaware of it Hungary has been drifting towards being an authoritarian fascist state for the last several years so much so that Frau Merkel has warned Budapest that its EU membership could be suspended.

The current problem is largely being caused by out and out racism on the part of Hungary. None of these people want to settle in Hungary and just need 24 hrs transit which the regime refuses to the extent of resurrecting the iron curtain.

Frau Merkel is miffed and is considering action against Hungary most likely the freezing of billions of €uros of structural finding.

He who pays the piper ...

fwiw it may be disturbing for a quiet village to experience a flood of refugees for a day or so. The Serbs have for the most part been very helpful. Imagine then a quiet village in Syria and the sudden arrival of half a dozen barrel bombs or a detachment of de'esh.

The UK has managed to deal with large numbers of refugees several times since ww2 without any major problem. Why is there is so much angst now?

Ok, I've just skim read Rollo's post. It's all very well suggesting solutions in stopping the cause, or reiterating why people are migrating from the region.

What is happening now, this moment, not 6 weeks time when politicians have had their heads knocked together.
Various Balkan states were not expecting the numbers of people arriving within 24/48 hours. Their infrastructure/economies/resources just can't provide the humanitarian aid they are expected to give.

Let's put it another way. 3000 people arrive unexpectedly at Bournemouth rail station. They expect to be given food, water and a train to take them to Hexham. It's not going to happen in a couple of hours, is it?
Austria had to set up a centre under their main railway station because they couldn't process/move on the migrants. They were organised!

I don't think I'm missing any point Rollo, I'm just trying to see things from all points of view, taking out the political aspects.

I think it frightening for small villages to see 1000's of people passing through. Of course it Is frightening for those fleeing, I completely understand that.

But when frightened people are in confined spaces and different languages are spoken, I'd say it's a very bad situation for all.

I think people are missing the point.

There is nothing very "copable" about Syria today which is why people are fleeing. Would you advise people to make a death defying visit to Damascus, find a functioning EU consul, fill in an application for refugee status, wait three months for a reply and hope that you were not killed or arrested by Assad's security police in the meanwhile ? Leaving Syria without an exit visa is a criminal offense in Syria.

nah, of course not you pick up your sticks and go. If the west finds it inconvenient it should have thought more carefully about doing nowt about Assad two years ago.

ISIL/Nusrah are currently shelling the main road from Damascus to Aleppo. If they breach this road then Assad's army may collapse and for sure would find it v difficult to defend Aleppo. If the Alawites find themselves with nowhere safe on top of the (mostly) Sunni who have left then the present flood of refugees will become a deluge not to mention some very nasty stuff on the evening news. Hence the Russians considering intervention.

Fairly obviously ISL have powerful friends in the region and are able to export oil. They have a vast stock of modern weapons taken from the Iraqi and Syrian armies. They have no plans to go away.

Cameron will get nowhere with his pre-referendum negotiations if he persists in his current line with the refugee crisis. The EU wants the UK to take 2.300 people. What is so difficult about that?

It does seem as if it's too many too quickly, it's just not a copable amount, and it seems that more and more are coming.
Perhaps Germany, by saying they will welcome migrants, has given the green light to people who aren't refugees, who just want a better life? Maybe they think there are jobs and houses awaiting them, and that has to be a false hope.

If we could try to imagine say half the population of Wales or Scotland heading to a border town with England, we might get a better idea of what its like.
If that’s to ‘English’ imagine the population of say Birmingham or Liverpool heading the other way.

Too many, too quickly. An unstoppable flood and humanitarian disaster.

Things are looking very bleak now aren't they, Croatia has said it cannot cope, and watching the news you can see why, one little village consisting of a row of houses, has 1,000 of people pass through. The refugees/migrants are frightened, but so to must the residents of the village be. I see that fighting broke out between the refugees/migrants, and rocks again were thrown, not a good sign.

Germany is worried that they have 1,000's of refugees making there way there, and are now worried about Oktoberfest, there are too many people already, without the tourist.

II try to imagine what it would be like if the town I live in, suddenly had an influx of 1000's of people, I doubt it could cope either.

Worrying times for all :-(

Never thought I would agree with Rollo but he is spot on. There is now only one way of resolving this. If the UN can't get a grip then someone else will have to.

Now Croatia has closed 7 out of 8 it's borders with Serbia. Slovenia says it will return migrants.
It's a disaster. if Germany hadn't publicised it would accept all Syrians, fewer migrants might have tried to get there. they'd have still come to Europe but would have headed in different directions.

For once I must agree with Rollo: The United Nations, which should be the place where international disputes and civil wars are sorted out, is as useless as a chocolate fireguard!

A great many of these people earned good money in Syria, they were engineers, dentists, doctors, architects, mechanics ....

Before what was called "the Arab Spring" life under Assad and his Ba'ath dictatorship was ok so long as you kept out of politics. Syria then was most def. not Afganistan 2 but a fairly modern country with about the same standard of living as Greece, Portugal or Turkey. Damascus and Aleppo were quite flash.

Most who decamped to Jordan, Lebanon etc thought they would be able to return after a few months. Now they are still there and destitute. Those with the most to lose have been the last to leave hence the evidence of past prosperity - mobile phones and designer jeans and trainers.

What has been happening in Syria is nothing like the London blitz its a a street by street total destruction like some video game nightmare where if the tanks and barrel bombs don't get you then the de'esh will rape your women and cut of your head. The only rational response is to flee and if David Cameron thinks otherwise then he should try a weekend in Iblib.

It is no use quoting Dublin conventions and other such guff. Nobody admits to foreseeing the turn of events ( why not? it was fairly obvious ) and there is nothing in the EU treaties to deal with it except basic morality which looks to be in very short supply.

The only solution to this mess is for NATO to do what it should have done three years ago. Send in a sizable force of ground troops backed up by air power and wipe out the de'esh. Russia is part of the problem and should be told that their naval base will be left alone but otherwise not to interfere. Forget UN votes it is a hollow organisation which only represents and finances itself.

The alternative is not hundreds of thousands wending their way into Europe but millions.

Sure many people want neither. Not an option. Tough.
My guess is that until the next US President is in power nothing much will happen except for more refugees, barrel bombs and al de'esh outrages.

After that it depends on the US facing down a Russia which will be on the edge of going bust by the end of next year. Don't rule out a putsch in Moscow.

So here we are 75 years after the Battle of Britain with the RAF still taking to the skies against mad jihadists. W E Johns would be in his element.

:-0