General Chat

Hmm...

So not much different to Christians then?

BTW, I think Moslems would call it the 'One True Faith', not the 'One True Fate' :-D


Surely the Hindu's taken over the country with the Shri Swaminarayan Mandir in Neasden?
This place was built over 20 years ago:

http://londonmandir.baps.org/

....and yes, it does look like a huge wedding cake!!

"That's stuffed up all those born here then, hasn't it?"

no not at all ; if you read what I put about exceptions colonising countries of the unbelievers by having a lot of kids, building mosques and converting the infidels to the one true fate is the second exception after the first one of conquest.

The flag if Saudi Arabia bears a sword for a reason together with the legend "There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God".

"Islam does not allow its adherents to live long term in countries of unbelievers; they are supposed to do their business there and then depart"

Really?

That's stuffed up all those born here then, hasn't it?

Well at least those with whom the Force flow seem to be able to manage without a large building and parking all over the place. Their 390 000 adherents according to the Census probably exceed the number of CofE people attending church on any given Sunday .....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29753530

What religion do the Goths follow ?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/goth.htm

I mention theForce and theGoths as practical examples by which the somewhat zany practice of religion need not cause death and destruction or parking problems for everybody else. Instead we can all have a giggle :-)

Sorry, submitted that before I finished it.

Rollo, you've given me more to giggle about but I fear they (and I hope not you) are serious.

The Force :-S. Oh dear, there appears to be a lot of people around in need of something to do.

I'm doing all I can to stop falling off my chair laughing......... and isn't that awful of me
:-D

TheForce is according to the last UK census a popular UK religion ...

I am not at all anti-muslim some of my closest friends of many years standing are of the muslim faith.

It is often said that Islam is " a religion of peace, of submission". And so it is once it is understood that peace comes from submission to allah it is not the peace derived from live and let live popular in the secular west.

Submission to allah means obeying the various rules of islam some of which are not all that serious, esp. the well known prohibitions on smoking and drinking while others are somewhat draconian and are totally in conflict with the host country. They certainly are not intended to stop people making money but even here islamic business - spread out all the way from Bradford to Kolkata runs rings around the British taxman.

There is no real idea of the state in Islam or expression of it in sharia law. True states have been established but there is no sense of nationality behind them which is one reason that there are so few peaceful islamic states. No significant Islamic state has been able to create a stable government except by the use of armed force. coercion and intolerance of the out groups. Power as in Europe in the Middle Ages and later is sustained by the islamic clerics shi'a or sunni.

If you think I am being a bit wild then consider the state of affairs in Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, the Lebenon, Gaza, the Yemen, Sudan, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Turkey and Saudi Arabia have terrible rifts which could be rent open at any time.

Given this state of affairs expecting muslim populations in western Europe to jump up and down with glee supporting whatever British / French / German values are supposed to be by the government of the day is wildly unrealistic especially when those who consider themselves native citizens of the "Last Kingdom" are nowhere near agreeing what those values are. Many muslims regard the mainly atheist populations of Europe with disdain at best. I am not talking about jihadis who are for the most part seen as sad young men and even traitors.

Given the tiny resources that UKGov and GCHQ have both on the ground and in the UK with a good comprehension of modern Arabic and Farsi and the jihadis in particular they can monitor the internet until the cows come home it won't help. Far better to enlist the help of the silent majority of muslims who want peace and quiet together with specialist journalists and reporters. Instead Mrs May's instincts are to demonise Islam and treat the press and tv reporters as criminal associates. It won't fly.

Meanwhile I hope that the very large Abbey Mills site is put to good use for all the people of London.

Well, Rollo, has anyone told Muslims that they are supposed to do their business then depart or are they allowed a lifetime in order to complete their business?

Is there really no conception of separation between Islam and the secular? I should think a state schoolteacher could comment on that better than I could.

I entirely agree that Muslims could have small places of worship as do Anglicans, Methodists, Salvationists etc. and I am not surprised that the application was denied.

I would'nt waste my time googling the area when you have put the case so succinctly and authoritatively.

By the way, please don't tell me that TheForce is what I think it is. If it is, then I think it's about time that Scotty beamed them up :-S

I did have a muslim boyfriend for three years in my twenties, a lively relationship that, but I don't really understand Islam. I have, however, always, especially since knowing him, been uneasy with it.

It did occur to me that the construction of a mosque of those dimensions would have some connotations of power about it, something very imposing that made me feel a little uneasy, maybe as the union workhouses did.

"it may take rezoning but is there no industrial-use land within say a ten-mile radius of the site where they want to build the mosque in East London? I don't know the London area at all well so perhaps someone will keep me right?"

lol try googling the area with maps and photo overlay set on

Ten miles around Abbey Mills is 100% built up with businesses, industry and housing ( excepting the Thames and adjacent marshland). You will see a map of the area every time EastEnders starts up.A ten mile radius will take you into all sorts of areas a big chunk of Greater London. There is no zoning in London of the classic town planning variety it is for the most part a higgledy piggledy agglomeration of villages dating back to Doomsday.

In the Abbey Mills area itself there is a desperate need for affordable (ideally social housing / private mix ) housing. The relations between communities are poor as it is such that a wacking great mosque dominating the area would not be a great idea to say the least.

The refusal was on planning grounds but realistically it never really had much chance.

It is a fairly large mistake to treat Islam as just another religion alongside, say, Christianity, Buddhism, TheForce and so on ....

Islam does not allow its adherents to live long term in countries of unbelievers; they are supposed to do their business there and then depart.

However there are two exceptions. The first of these is conquest by force notably from Mecca to Spain via North Africa in the C9/10 and the Turks.

The second is by settlement and increase of population such that over time Islam becomes a dominant force. A large mosque and minarets are a core part of this, the building serves much the same political function as a Norman castle. There is no concept of seperation of the secular and religion within Islam. Mr Cameron's idea of the mosque encouraging "British values" over Islamic teaching is either bone headed on purpose or hides something darker.

The religious needs of muslims in the UK couild easily be served by smaller mosques without minarets allowing no more than 500 people . Indeed this is what has happened in many towns where old cinemas and churches have often been adapted with few social problems.

Is this supposed to be as well as or in addition to the current E London mosque?

I worked for an overseas local authority planning department where it was suggested that land on the edge of the city, where light industrial use existed alongside agricultural land, would be an ideal site for a mosque. I particularly remember a couple of silly complaints that had us smiling if not rolling about laughing but these were outweighed by the suitability of a site where parking was abundant and noise from the call to prayer was not overheard in people's homes.

The mosque is there now, with lots of room for parking, and people willing to travel to the edge of the suburb to worship. The travel is not a problem for devout Muslims as it is isn't for many Christians who regularly travel to the church where they were brought up.

It may take rezoning but is there no industrial-use land within say a ten-mile radius of the site where they want to build the mosque in East London? I don't know the London area at all well so perhaps someone will keep me right?

thank you Rose - we have more than enough mosques in Cardiff :-P :-D

Neither of those buildings are in use every day so they would be the buildings to use for a gathering of that size.

Apparently Cardiff Stadium has a capacity of 33,280......and Wembley 90,000

Make of that what you will ;-)

I don't like the idea of a building that holds that many people for any purpose. It hardly likely that ten thousand people will come together regularly for any purpose and, if they do, there are other buildings that will hold a crowd of that size standing empty for a large pat of the time.

I doubt the city council, or whatever they are there, of Kabul would look favourably upon a planning application for a cathedral there either!

Parents at schools all around here park on double yellows while waiting to pick up their kids. Cops drive past every day and do nothing.

We have a camera car in Enfield, just drives round all day (and night) taking photos. If you pull over to the side of the road in town to let a passenger out, a fixed camera will catch you and send a penalty. Even if you stop for only a few seconds.

you are joking, blind eyes and all that.....there is near me in town close to a post office and bedding shop, a car parked frequently half on the pavement on double yellow lines....in full view of a roadside cctv camera...

The point is that land should have been purchased for housing, the shortage is critical as in a lot of boroughs.

Plus the sale was made to an Islamic Missionary Movement (read into that what you will).

The borough council have a lot to answer for in their forward planning thinking!