General Chat

Hi everyone i was wondering if someone could shed some light on this subject for me ive been adopted myself and have my usual birth entry also an adopted entry.
what i cant seem to get my head around or maybe im being dumb but it has got me doing somersaults......... :-) does every adopted person pre 1960 get 2 entries into the birth register?? mine was 1971 an i do :-S

many thanks

Yes because there is a name change. Official adoption didn't start till 1927 so before then only one birth registration number

ok thanks Quinsgran that helps then the one im after may not be legit that would certainly shed light on it

big thanks

My dad (born 1926) was adopted in 1942 - being 16, he knew about it, and he has at least 2 entries :-S
1926 under his (unmarried) mother's name
1942 under his adopted name, with a scratching out due to a mistake!!

what got me this person got the same entry number but under two different names ive gone round in circles looking to
not actual names but an example
smith
4a234
jones
4a 234

same year etc same mothers maiden name etc

had me going for a while this has but i just got myself confused for going round an round
:-)

so ........

in your example it would be

smith mmn talbot reg. wigan 4a 234

jones mmn talbot reg. wigan 4a 234

Am I understanding that correctly???


Do the entries appear on the same page?


It could be because Ms Talbot was married to Mr Smith and the Registrar had assumed that baby's father was Mr Smith.

But in fact baby's father was Mr Jones ............... mistake was realised and the registration was re-done naming Mr Jones


If you look at a birth certificate, you will see that there is actually no surname put in the baby's column ................ it is assumed that his/her surname will be either the mother's surname if she is not married OR that it will be the name of her husband

This applies even if the father is dead, or has disappeared ............... mother's official name is her married name unless she has stopped using it.

I have a relative who was widowed very young and a couple of years later had a child just before she remarried, this was in the 1840s.

If this was the child above he would have been 1st name then Jones Smith but on her remarriage he was called 1st name Smith Jones and used the double barreled name all through his life. I believe he was the child of the second husband.

Could the child above be a child of a widow who after the birth married the father and had the registration altered by adopting his child or claiming parentage?

Just a thought as it was only last week I was dealing with my bit of a mystery of a birth. :-)

I have learned something that I did not know about registrations today.

Incidentally, the birth of one of my grandfathers was registered twice. Eventually, I put it down to registrar error. I obtained both birth certificates, both had the name of the same mother albeit with a slightly different spelling. The father's names on the second, over-the page registration with one other registration in between, was the brother of the father on the first registration. Both brothers have at least one child registered at the same place. Being of a suspicious nature, I thought something was afoot - why would a mother register the same birth at almost the same time with two different fathers? However, in my grandfather's effects was his birth certificate showing the father from the first registration and, indeed, this is whom he lived with on the first couple of censuses.

To add to this, I knew the date of birth on the certificate was incorrect because I knew when grandfather's birthday was celebrated. To prove this to a much younger cousin, I searched and found grandfather's baptism. It gave his parents' names as on the first registration, the abode at the time of baptism and, more importantly, the date, of birth, which was before the date of birth given on his birth certificate.

The date of birth given on his birth certificate was 2nd, his baptism was 25th of the previous month and the birth registration date was six weeks after the false date of birth on the birth certificate (ie 16th of the following month).

I had two trains of thought. Initially, I thought my great-grandmother had given a false date of birth to the registrar to avoid any comeback from not registering his birth within six weeks of his birth. However, my second thought (and the one I am inclined to plump for) was that perhaps the registrar had celebrated market day too vigorously and had got his months muddled, then turned the page and thought he had forgotten to register the birth so wrote details from memory thereby getting the wrong brother as father and spelling the mother's maiden name differently.

Incidentally, my grandfather changed his name at his second marriage so his death is registered twice, once with his real name and then with his alias. These two entries follow each other in the register and each refers to the other surname (aka).

I knew, when I was a child, that my surname was not our real one. Thank goodness I was a curious child and, so, I knew when grandfather's birthday was.

I had a vast amount of help in unravelling these mysteries from a local couple and from Genes' people for which I remain grateful still.

Hi Sylviain

so ........

in your example it would be

smith mmn talbot reg. wigan 4a 234

jones mmn talbot reg. wigan 4a 234

Am I understanding that correctly???


Do the entries appear on the same page?

yes basically it the only difference is there not on the same page

Patyin an Joy ive been round in circles ive had help from the good people at genes and its all very welcomed to this part of my tree has baffled me many times an well i will get there hopefully at some point :-)
mysterys all out to try us

Where's the original post on this thread gone to or has there been a name-change?

hi Joy this is the original post i posted last night

I'm confused now..

I knew that adopted persons were issued with a new birth certificate upon adoption but I didn't think that the details appeared in the registers for anybody to see??

I don't think that they do Lavender. The only time that they would appear is if a child was registered in one name (say the mother was still married at the time of the birth but not to the father of the child). The first record would give the husband's surname for the child (unless the real father went to register with her). If the mother then went on to divorce the first husband and marry the real father then there may be a re-registration giving the real father's surname on the second registration. This second registration would not be at the same time in the index. There would also be a crossing out of numbers on the first record.

This has happened in my own family in the 1960's and 70's.

To see two registrations with the same volume and page numbers with different surnames usually means that the parents are not married but the father was there at registration and the child was registered twice with both surnames. This is probably only for earlier births. I think today things are a lot different.

Kath. x

hi lavender and kath

confused lavender me to lol

kath

this is in the early sixties
both in the 1st qtr
both entry numbers are same
same mmn
same area
but different surnames

there was certain events ive also found out
the birth
the death of the birth mother
also the re marriage of the father
but none have the surname on the second entry

baffled.com
:-) :-) :-) :-)

Thank you, Kathleen X
:-)

Could the mother have been known by both surnames at one time? Could she have lived with someone and used his surname but not be married to him?

Without seeing the entry it is difficult to judge.

If you wanted to give the information in a private message I would have a look but don't worry if you don't want to.

Kath. x

msg sent kathleen thanks

Every adopted person doesnt get 2 entries in the birth indexes,

When birth parents arent married but the child is wanted to take the surname of the father the normal procedure is that the proceding surname is taken as the surname to be known as...... the fathers,if he parents marry within a year there may be post 1950 to 1968 a small (a) against the entry.meaning that the registration and any future copies of a certificate will be issued as if the parents were married at that time of the birth.,,ie---formally instead of nee.and also show in the gro indexes under the surname/s used by the mother at that time and the surname of the father,

Its only from late 1960 that the public gro index shows where there has been a surname change,this can be either by full formal adoption into another family or adoption by a birth and step parent,

1971 it will show in the public gro indexes with ie---7a--145..to 7a--1084/s..... only 1084 will appear on the adoption birth certificate that the aopted person is issued with as a legal document as per normal birth certificate this is the entry number into the closed Adopted Childrens Register in their new identity.

I was adopted in 1944. My birth was registered in the births records under my (unmarried ) mother's name.

5 months later I was registered in the adopted children's register under my new first name and adoptive parents' name.