General Chat

I think JoyLouise hits the nail right on the head. There must be many people who voted out who are now waking up to the full realisation of what they have done and regretting their decision.

I'm sure many did vote as a protest but many more were clearly taken in the the promises of milk and honey, all of which seem to be evaporating as quickly as the morning mists. I also believe many of the protest voters would have accepted a remain result, as it happens, wrongly assuming that would be the likely outcome, irrespective of the way they voted.

I can see the public costs of leaving amounting to tens if not hundreds of billions over the next decade. The lawyers especially must be rubbing their hands with glee. As far as gaining our independence from the EU surely the opposite will happen, probably for many years to come, as they will wish to dictate the terms of our leaving in a way which suits them, not us.

Many in the Remain camp are putting the blame for their defeat on Exit pressing the immigration issue and all Leavers being closet racists.
A misguided view in my experience.
In my experience the reasons for voting Leave were more focused on the EU mantra of "Ever closer union" and mistrust that the objective would remain and be put into practice regardless of any agreements, vetos or whatever.
The freedom of movement clause should be so that workers could temporarily take jobs in other member States, e.g. to work in oversas branches or where there is a skills shortage whilst native workers are being recruited and trained, and not to facilitate wholesale and permanent population migration. But that is not how it is being applied.

Unsurprising to see people backtracking on statements made in the run-up to the vote. They ought to have been challenged vigorously.

Elizabeth, Oz (dtr) mentioned the million-signature petition this morning. We think that a good proportion of the signatories may have voted to leave and are now running scared having listened to the backtracking going on.

Admission of more lies, sorry misunderstandings, from the exit brigade on immigration.

Leave campaigner Nigel Evans MP says there had been "some misunderstanding” over the Leave campaign’s position on reducing immigration and there will be no reduction, only 'control' , whatever that means.

It looks more and more that much of the public has been the taken in by a huge con. No wonder there is a petition calling for a new referendum.

Somebody discovered Leave's ruthless plan for the future of the UK:

The comprehensive Brexit plan:

1: Get our country back
2: We haven't thought this far ahead
— Ben Cooper (@bencooper) June 24, 2016

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/petition-for-second-eu-referendum-hits-1-million-signatures-5965795/

It is my understanding that the decimation of the steel and shipbuilding industries was forced by Asian hands. This happened in Australia too (Whyalla, SA is a prime example).

The rise of Asia was swift once countries switched from a predominant agrarian economy. Using overseas-produced steel, Asia began to produce ships more cheaply than the UK and most other countries. It was not long before Asia began to produce its own steel. The writing was on the wall for the West.

Japan led the way but has been largely overtaken by other Asian countries.


David, regarding your comment about bankers. Regardless of how much individuals have in their personal coffers, their job is to make the most they can. That is how they make their banks profitable and competitive which is what every employee (banker or not) ought to be doing for their employer.

Having said that, they do have rules to follow and we have seen the outcomes when individuals get caught breaking the rules.

Autumn Leaves

Thank you also

Chris

Of those under 25 who did vote it was a massive 73% Remain, only 23% Leave.

Re the age difference and how people voted {in or out} - this was discussed on the radio last night and the percentage of young people who were entitled to vote and did not was quite large {cannot remember the exact figure now}

I am "old" and voted "Remain" because that is what my grandson would be best for the young

Edited after re reading :-0 I said I was old :-S
I used my vote to REMAIN

Alea iacta est

Whatever the reason, the result is in.

I do tend to agree with Sylvia, but regardless, the UK, or at least England and Wales, now has to move on to the next phase

Whilst Manchester may well have chosen to remain in Europe, its neighbouring towns - Oldham, Rochdale, Tameside and Wigan - firmly decided (60%) to leave.

I live in Wigan and yes, there is still a North/South divide in people's thinking. It's not as strong as it once was, but it is still definitely there. We are a town built on small mining communities and, when we first moved here from Liverpool over 30 years ago, we were told that it could take 30 years before we would be accepted as 'one of them'. I think we have just qualified now :-D

Age Division?

The BBC analysis reckons there probably was

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36619342

Autumnleaves

Thank you

SilviainCanada

Congratulations and thanks for your 2 well written posts, at 12.24 & 17.29 pm

Also

ChrisofWessex

"Youngsters and I say that for 'under forties' have known nothing other than EU and therefore independence is unknown to them."

And clean them up with a good powerful Hoover !

Well at least we can play conkers and eat wobbly vegtables again :-D :-D

Let us not forget the French farmers in Sept 1990 protesting about English lambs/sheep being imported. They felt so strongly that these humane farmers set fire to a truck of over 200 lambs - they were roasted - alive. Another truck, the sheep had their throats cut and several other trucks of animals suffered cruel attacks.

The farmers were also at war with their government and asking that imports from eastern Europe be curtailed.

Whether we had remained or left there would have to be a period of adjustment - but leaving would be our decision and to manage our own finances. Mistakes well they will be ours and not imposed upon us by strangers.

I object that the assumption is that the 'oldies' would vote for leave. Now why would they do that? Because they recall when law was British law - not laws pass by a group of unelected twerps. 21 years not a proper audit and the deficit gets larger each year. Moving offices each month or so - ridiculous. Expense Claims - think of a number and write it down.

Fishing and manufacturing industries decimated, shipyards gone the same way, steel industry.

Youngsters and I say that for 'under forties' have known nothing other than EU and therefore independence is unknown to them.

We have stood alone before.

We had sheep during the Chernobyl melt down. It's true restrictions were placed on sheep movement until the levels of radiation were tested and some farmers did indeed lose their flocks. No point in feeding sheep and then keeping the flock as pets,

This was historic and there were NO restrictions on lamb exports for unaffected areas and the bans were lifted a few years ago on badly contaminated farms :-D There were only a few areas that suffered levels outside the food safety guidelines.

Sue

we don't touch Welsh lamb over here ..... almost never see it in the stores, and that is presumably because people won't buy it, and it is much more expensive when it is sold than fresh NZ

Rollo posted ...........
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There have been excellent northern universities for a very long time - Durham, Newcastle, Liverpool, Nottingham, Manchester/UMIST . Some of my rellies taught in them. A Geordie or Liverpudlian accent was no obstacle to advancement unless you wanted it to be.

It is perfectly true that the Inns of Court and City banking have a preference for a handful of universities and public schools. I have never understood why the Labour Party fail to tackle this and instead have created a parallel system of elite comprehensives and feeder primaries..
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I think Sylvia's memory is a very long way from today's reality. Even the Boys from the Black stuff would not recognise today's Liverpool. Sure there are still far too many pockets of poverty all over England from northern cities such as Hull, Middlesborough and Sunderland, Aston and Coventry in the Midlands, Luton, Peterboro, Corby in the east Midlands, Southend, Barking, Margate and Dover in the south east. As I recall Waterloo, Canada has its problems.

Failure to bring prosperity to places such as these has cost Cameron dearly though the problems go back a very long way. But to characterise the problem as north v south them down there and us up here is absurd.
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fwiw I have close rellies in Sheffield, Newcastle and the east Midlands. I know these places as they are today and as they were in the 1960s. Not remotely like the same.
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I KNOW that I have not lived in the UK for almost 50 years

I KNOW that I do not know what it is like now, personally, I never said I did. I never ever said my "memory applied to today.

I KNOW there are excellent northern universities ............ I went to Liverpool University, after all. I said that it didn't matter that you got a good degree from one of those IF you had a northern accent

I can give you quotes from Headmasters of public schools who said to friends of mine around 1960-65 "Maybe we should consider sending some of our better students to northern universities after seeing the good degree and education you got there"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FWIW .............. my teachers at a good Lancashire grammar school would not allow me to apply to Manchester (because the Faculty was "no good"), to Hull (not a good red brick university), or to Keele (unproven in science). A good friend did go to Keele, earned himself a PhD in Political Science, and became a university lecture and professor in the UK ........... the curriculum was very attractive there as it was the first university in the UK not to put a separation on science and arts.


I was saying what it was like and what we were told when I was growing up in the 40s, 50s and 60s ............. and yes, I do know personally that people did NOT get jobs because of their northern accent. One friend was told that a certain public school would not hire him, despite an excellent degree and otherwise ticking all the boxes, because "the parents will not like your accent".

They did get positions if they went to elocution lessons and learned to "speak proper" as it was called.

I too had many friends and rellies who went to northern universities, who got jobs "dahn sarf". I even had one rellie who broke into BBC and was heard regularly on the radio in the late 1960s and early 1970s ..... he changed his accent :-D


I do not quite know what you mean by saying "As I recall Waterloo, Canada has its problems"

That's a non sequitur in terms of the discussion ......... and I would never deny that that Waterloo has Problems", though I'm not sure what you mean.

I also would not deny that any university in Canada has "a problem" in some way ............... all universities, not matter where they are, have "problems" at times. Even Cambridge and Oxford have some problems that you may not know about.

In this instance, I do know what I say .............. I speak as someone who has been a student or employed or otherwise connected to the university world for over 50 years, in England, US, Canada and Australia, as well as having many friends in university circles around the world.