General Chat

That does come up a lot in that time period but not sure it fits in here.

Would anyone be an expert in Greek or Latin? Would H and D mean anything?

Possibly a Mason's Mark?

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/arthistory/staff/ja/research/masonsmarks/

Not a Freemason as such, as 1711 is too early for the organisation as it is known today. There is a history of some Lodges being in existence in the same period, particularly in Scotland, but it is doubtful that a farmer, even a wealthy one, would have been a member

So the previous query was mine - I'd forgotten I'd posted.

I just keep on trying, asking all sorts of people in a bid to find out. Tried online and come up with nothing too.

Cuz, SiL (both Latin teachers), clergy, cathedral archaeologist, stonemasons ... if anyone has any idea who else I can ask, I'd be happy to read about it as I would like the mystery cleared.

Thank you all for your help so far.

I take it it's proper engraving, commensurate with the original carving of the gravestone, and not the equivalent of carving lovers' initials on a tree?

The earliest operative lodge minutes are from the late 1600's, but speculative lodges didnt exist until 1717. Masons marks were generally cyphers and not letters.

Could it be a case of the stone has been recycled from something else? Possibly a lintel or a mullion, or a fireplace?

Here's what I've come up with so far.

The letter C is Cardinal, meaning Passion for Life.

The + that looks as though it was within a shape probably like a circle is the Cross of Salvation, the Celtic Cross, the circle symbolising eternity. Apparently, also, a cross within a circle became a symbol for earth but I am not sure of timing. The earth aspect would tie in with being a farmer.

The H is Hominum or Hominem - which, if this was right, would mean the spread of symbols across the top of the gravestone would be more equidistant.

Having written that, I am still keeping eyes and ears open

Eldrick, I hope, at least, it wasn't from someone else's tomb like the supposed 'Romeo and Juliet' balcony in Italy.

Just seen on the church site that it is St Michael and All Angels Church Esh with Hamsteels.

Bearing in mind the other e's and the irregular use of upper and lower case on the tombstone, could it perhaps be that it is e + H for Esh and Hamsteels.

Perhaps used by the monumental mason to mark which church it was to be delivered to.

If the nearby churchyards have a similar stone from that time, it might be possible to confirm that theory.

Nearby Parishes (within 5 miles) are:
Annfield Plain
Bearpark
Brancepath
Lanchester
Witton Gilbert

None of the cathedral stonemasons believes it is a mason's mark.

It is the oldest standing stone in the churchyard and, yes, it is S M & AA at Esh but there is no other stone there to compare with.

Two cousins and I have checked and double-checked and drawn blank.

Joseph is my direct ancestor, as was his first wife. He and his descendants were all farmers and, surprisingly, for the time, one of them left equal amounts to all of his sons and daughters and money to educate two poor children. The desire for equality and education has carried on through generations but, sadly, not through every line.

So, with this in mind, I have broadened my search and still found nothing. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Kense, I am often across at Lanchester where my bestie lives so I'll take a look there.

We've been to Witton Gilbert but we'll re-visit.

We often visit Brancepeth cos we have several family members interred there but the next time we go, we'll look around the other stones.

We'll also visit Bearpark where the family had farms too.

As far as I know we have no connection to Annfield Plain but it may be worth a look during the summer.

I need to be thinking of what was in vogue in 1711 perhaps.

how about ...

C is for Christus - Christ

+ is a cross -- standing for salvation as the cross does

H is for Homo - man

Christ the salvation of Man

Christus salutis hominis = Christ is salvation for mankind?

Christus salvator hominum = Christ is the saviour of men?

(the word order would be slightly off for Latin, but not everybody spoke Latin fluently :-) )

That sounds entirely plausible, JoonieC, and not too far away from what I think it could have been - in my 22:23 post yesterday - but I think your explanation is better by far.

aha, it turns out (google says), after I made that up, that

christus salvator hominum

is a real thing, also

christus salvator hominum natus

= Christ the saviour of man is born

Not to say that this is what your C+H is, but it's a theory!

Christ, the Saviour of Man (or even Christ is Man's salvation).

A good explanation, I think.

I'll pass that along to cousins; I think they'd be inclined to agree that it is a highly likely possibility.

Thank you everyone.

If they were farmers unlikely it's Latin. Maybe Holy Communion ?

Why would it be unlikely to be Latin because he was a farmer, David?

I have copies of some wills and land documents for my family from way back, written in Latin, some in Ecclesiastcal Latin - from originals kept in the University Library or the County Records Office.

No bad intention intended, was just a thought, sorry

I didn't think of bad intentions, David. I just wondered why you thought it unlikely.

I honestly don't know. Latin I've always associated with the learned