General Chat

At this time "renewable" power sources account for about half of the power fed into the National Grid.

Electric vehicles with batteries when charging the battery draw power from the Nat grid. They do not use solar or wind power directly.

As transport energy usaage based on carbon falls additional electrical power will be essential. The Torys would prefer this to be based on gas, nuclear. Market reality suggest more renewables more wind farms and solar. Probably more acceptable than shale gas extraction in the New Forest.

Sailing boats of course can manage long distances with only wind power while solar power provides all kinds of electronic luxuries unthinkable when I was a youngun learning to sail a Thames barge. UK harbors rathet spoil the savings with exorbitant mooring fees.

Solar power and wind power don't create enough energy for habitations/industry, let alone electric cars.
So how is the 'extra' electricity created for electric cars?

What on earth makes anybody think that the UK will do anything other than follow the herd? It does not have native technology (except in niche areas), economic size or political clout to do anything else.

Consider a bus with electrical motor and power source Tesla type batteries which work fine at -30C. Compared to a diesel bus much better acceleration, regenerative braking, drastically reduced maintenance, zero emissions. Not only is a classic bus now a poor buy but so are used vehicles which will slump in price. This could badly upset leasing company cash flow.

Much the same applies to cars.
Tesla have taken 400 000 orders for their 3 series badly denting BMW sales. Delivery is 2018 not 2040. The auto industry will be switching to electric power as fast as it can to stay alive. selling new ice cars will get tough and used ones even tougher.

Welcome to now.

"And maybe some of the content will stick."

Well that depends are there any pretty pictures, that always helps or nice music in the background.

Battery power transportation doesn't work; at the moment; too well in extreme temp. which a lot of the world faces at some point in the year.

As Maggie said private companies aren't worried about climate change etc they're worried about profit margins and fleecing the public and Governments for as much as they can get....they might do loss leaders for a while but once you're hooked......

Rollo mentioned a credit crunch a few posts earlier.

From a car finance point of view, this might shed some light on the thinking

Are the wheels about to fall off car finance?
https://www.ft.com/content/0e651206-0ee1-11e7-a88c-50ba212dce4d

Credit crunch WARNING: Bank of England fears reckless lenders could spark financial crisis
http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/824555/
Bank-England-sub-prime-financial-crisis-debt-credit-car-finance

Going back to the original post, wasn't it based on no NEW petrol/diesel powered cars to be sold after 2040? If so, second hand ones will continue to exchange hands. That would give up to 15 years before they are off the roads. Of course, if continental Europe isn't following suit, there'll be a market for buying there and shipping home.

We do need to exploit natural energy, but the sun may not shine, nor the wind blow. New build houses are required to include solar panels. However the housebuilders only add the bare minimum. Even on a sunny day in the UK, they won't necessarily produce enough energy to fuel the household let alone feed into the grid.
Plant them in the countryside and more often than not, you're taking fertile farm land out of production. You might get a bit of grazing between the rows, but thats about it.
More could be done to harness the methane produced by decomposition in land-fill sites.

"Solar and wind power far cheaper than nuclear"
..but for whom, and for how long?
Chances are, those with solar panels who make a profit may find their storage battery costs rising!!
If a private company can fleece the public 9/10 times it will :-|

Try here
Http://www.tesla.com
And maybe some of the content will stick.

It is not a good idea to conflate the issues of electrical vehicles and carbon free power generation. For instance Australia is still heavily dependent on coal fired power stations. As a result a Tesla 3 in Oz has a bigger carbon footprint than a srandard petrol driven car. All the same things are changing Queensland has extensive plans for instance.

There is nothing new in heavy duty electrical motive power it has been in use for over a century. The major show stopper for automonous vehicles has been power. Tesla and others are cracking the problem resulting in an unexpected paradigm shift. Whatever they may claim governments have no power over it any more than they could save the sailing ship, typewriter or fax machine. When the writing is on the wall for a technology it tends not to last long.

Now we have two bedrock technologies changing in parallel.
1. Electrical vehicles battery powered with better performance overall than I.C.E.
2. Solar and wind power far cheaper than nuclear and soon to be cheaper than gas on a level playing field.
It is going to create one heck of a rumble starting now not in 20 years time. Brexit by comparison is very small beer.

The Vw saga has shown that Ice perfomance has maxed out. Battery performance has hardly got started.

An incidental benefit will be a slowing climate change.

At least put them on all public buildings.

That's a good idea, Caroline. Wonder if we could plant it in some ministers' minds?

I am wondering how farms would work / manage using electic vehicles!

Farms are much bigger today than they used to be, & the once small fields are now huge swathes of land, I just can't see the farmers not able to use the various deisel run tractors, combines & the like!!
Would electric farm vehicles work?

Joan.

Interesting though JoyLousie
How about the Government put solar panels on everyones homes for free therefore generating solar power for the country.

Not sure how effective this would be but how about cars with one or two solar panels on their roofs? The government could then try to persuade truck, bus and train owners to convert from diesel (and eventually petrol) by piling up the price of diesel and petrol. It would make a change from inner city local authorities constantly penalising car owners through congestion charges. Why not simply increase tax on fuel? If you've ever wondered why the government hasn't already done that, think what happens in France when the truckies aren't happy then add all vehicle owners into the mix.

Our MPs need to think more comprehensively and outside the box as well as inside. And definitely before they open their mouths or legislate.

Do ou ever wonder what qualifications and experience ministers and their advisers bring to the table? Precious little if the garbage about the 2040 deadline is anything to judge by.

LOL Maggie I am but a little girlie so I need to be told how to think :-D

So these batteries Rollo.....how are they charged up then and how long do they hold a charge?

Maggies point about the EU, would all truckers need to carry a super sized travel adapter with them so they can plug in?

Cyber attacks...they happen everywhere all the time, even the biggest and the best are attacked at some point...the hackers are always "improving".

There will be changes, of course there will how quick and how successfully who knows.....but even electric cars need power and the national grid will need to improve to handle it no doubt.

Hmmm - Caroline asks for clarification - and is told what she should think??????

...and no acceptance that sub-stations can be attacked, and attacked in more than just a 'local' way, through the (apparently) really safe medium of technology - and hackers. No opinions, Rollo? You could try Googling it.


Then your last comment, Rolo:

"The change certainly worries the Bank of England which is looking at a 2008 crefit crunch with loans secured against a wall of worthless tin."

Not sure what a crefit crunch is, but it wasn't just in the UK.

Then there's a point no-one seems to have noticed - what about foreign cars and lorries?
Even if we were IN the EU, we can't dictate what sort of vehicles other countries use, so what about imports, brought here by lorry?
By the same token, if all our lorries were electric, how would they cope with charging in other countries?

Truck mounted power supplies use batteries and are used in emergencies. They are used world wide and have nothing to do with "government control" or any energy policy. They are also used in projects without easy access to the grid or where the local load would be too high. The current govt feels that neighbours should be able to club together and buy one of their own.

There is no rational response available to F.U.D.

Caroline should be pleased at the disruptive changes in power production and usage which are a classic example of free economics. A bit tuf that Ukgov does not see it that way though. The politics of the well heeled running low cost Teslas and Volvos while the hoi poloi are still running I.C.E. and queuing at ever fewer petrol stations would challenge Solomon.

The change certainly worries the Bank of England which is looking at a 2008 credit crunch with loans secured against a wall of worthless tin.

Sorry, like to clarify Rollo for us thickies???

Both Maggie and Bob had good points, it's not a discussion if you just try to insult feel free to try and educate.

Out of ignorance came forth fruit cake.

so these truck mounted "power supplies run on thin air? I expect....hmmm!


this is purely down to Control...the government as the overseer...every thing we do, or would like to do is controlled by rules or taxation...the government never has GIVEN the public anything.....unless it was for its own benefit...

....so the viral attack in Kiev, earlier this year, dubbed “Industroyer” and “Crash Override”, that 'took down' electricity substations and circuit breakers didn't happen?

Attacking other forms of infrastructure wouldn't be too difficult, either, it appears, as industrial communication protocols are standardised across a number of types of critical infrastructure – from power, water and gas supply to transportation control.

So, whatever Rollo believes UKGOV prefers, this malware doesn't really care!!


"It is possible to fix the risk posed by Industroyer before it leads to disaster – but to do so will be expensive and time consuming, according to Paul Elon, a director at cybersecurity firm Tripwire. “Due to economic pressures, it has become necessary for many organisations to centralise some of the management and control functions that would have previously been local to industrial plants, refineries, and distribution facilities.

“This centralisation has meant expanding the reach of the enterprise network into the industrial environment, and in doing so exposing those industrial environments to levels of cyber risk for which they were neither secured nor designed.”

....and, as even the now privatised, foreign owned utility companies are all about vast profit rather than delivery, the chances of them spending millions on fixing something that isn't in, nor does it affect, their country is small, which will lead to the UK Government (ie the UK Citizens) paying to repair the problem to ensure the companies continue to receive ever increasing profits.

We shouldn't forget, England is living under 'austerity measures' at the moment (well, some are), and the Government claims we have no money.

Over 99% of the UK knocking out a sub station will cause another to kick in automatically possibly with a short delay. That is why we have a National Grid. There are also truck size mobile power units which are deployed in crisis situations. The Grid is in course of renewal.

Modern economies have been reliant on electrical power at point of use for nearly a century. In the UK power source policy is an even bigger dogs dinner tham brexit and for the same reason, ideology over logic. UKGOV prefers gas, nuclear power over renewables. As the remorseless tide of ever cheaper renewables rolls on they simply bend the rules to favour carbon and nuclear.

GPS used for monitoring Road use for pricing, traffic control would not be affected by short term terrestrial power outages. That is because in real time the only power sources involved are located on the GPS satellite and the vehicle. The vehicle unit would have enough local memory to hold data. The only alternative for fuel tax would be either a massive, ugly land based surveillance system which could only be delivered at vast cost or a totally different way to replace the fuel tax eg by raising VAT. Given the stron influence that current players have with the MOT a land badrd system is most likely. It would join the long list of expensive Ukgov It failures.

Nevertheless the I.C.E. technology is now obsolete following the launch of the latest Tesla 3 auto with a SP of $30 000. It is now a matter of managing the transition which is likely to be a bumpy ride with large changes in work and land use patterns.