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Hello people!

Sorry to have been away - I didn't realise you were working so hard on my behalf - apologies!

I have all the info on Dulcie. It's an odd one as her birth was registered as Ethelyn Dulcie, her marriage as Dulcia Ethelyn but she was known as Dulcie! The Dulcie born in 1926 is my grandmother. She was born Dulcia Ethel Nicholls (mother's maiden name Rowe). Dulcie Senior(!) was born in 1906 (registered 1907) so she doesn't appear on any census records.

The reason we think Frederick may have lied about his age is because my nan remembers him being much older than her mother. Also, on the marriage cert, Dulcie gives her age as 21 when in actual fact she was 18. As Frederick gives his age as 29, we thought he may have lowered his age to appear more 'proper' in relation to his bride. But he may well have been telling the truth which would mean he was born 1895/1896.

Here are the details of the marriage cert:

Frederick Nicholls aged 29, occupation Bricklayer, father: William Henry Nicholls (deceased), House Builder.
Dulcia Ethelyn Rowe aged 21, father: Frederick Reed Rowe, Chauffeur

Both Frederick and Dulcie were living in Dartmouth, Devon at the time of marriage, and the date was 25th Aug 1925 and was at Totnes Registry Office. The witnesses were Percy and Elsie Chaddock. It may be that these were passers by as they're not known as members of the family. Dulcie was also newly pregnant at the time of marriage with a 7 mth old baby from a previous relationship so the wedding may well have been a rush job!!!

The letter from 'M Hazel' was presumably sent to my great grandmother in Exeter as this was where she was living at the time - haven't found the envelope. I'm currently waiting to hear from Camden local services for details on the occupants of the address at the time. I'm presuming the M Hazel is a woman as she has a different surname to her brother. The letter is a brief note enquiring about 'her' brother's health.

The problem with the census reports is that we don't know when Frederick's father died. Or even if he was dead at all by 1925! Apparently he never mentioned his father or any of his family. He said he came from the Berkeley Vale area of Gloucestershire. BUT, he was known to be a bit of a rogue so everything needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. He abandoned the family and despite being prosecuted, he abandoned them again - despite his youngest son having just died at the age of 3 of TB - nice fellow!!

Please don't bust a gut on this one - I'm not all that hopeful! But thanks for all your help so far!

Kelly x

Nudge for Kelly.

Well Sue,

Nice to chat while we are waiting for Kelly to come back.

I don't think you can be 'old' with an 8 year old daughter!!

My son is 'going on' 36 and I have a grand-daughter of nearly 5. + 1 year old grandson. (don't ask about him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Will get back to the thread when Kelly returns.

Nice to talk!

Dea x

Hi Dea - yes daughter's hair does look good! She is a litte one (8) but I had a huge gap between my son and my daughter so I'm old as well!

There is a Dulcia Evelyn:

Births Jun 1907 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SIMMONS Dulcia Evelyn Dartford 2a 617

and this marriage??

Marriages Sep 1912 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gibbons John Withers Tiverton 5b 865
Rowe Frederick Simmons Tiverton 5b 865
Simmons Eveline M Rowe Tiverton 5b 865
Withers Alice E Gibbons Tiverton 5b 865

Worth a thought???

Dea x

P.S. - Sue - does daughter's hair look good? - How old is she - is she a 'little one' , or are you as old as me (tee hee!)?

Dea x

Nudge in case anyone has any good ideas!

Ethelyn seems to be a valid name as there are a few on FreeBMD, but I cannot find a birth for Duncia E, Dulcia E or Ethelyn as a first name, only Dulcie Eleanor.

Yes, but the GRO index really does have it as DULCIA. ;)

No more luck with births for that either, anyhow.

Hi Janey,

Nice to see you again!

I had the marriage as DUNCIA E ??

Marriages Sep 1925 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cook Beatrice M Smart Totnes 5b 418
Nicholls Frederick Rowe Totnes 5b 418
Rowe Duncia E Nicholls Totnes 5b 418
SMART Ernest F Cook Totnes 5b 418

We need more info here!

Dea x

At Ancestry, the marriage is in the name of DULCIA E ROWE, not Dulcie. I checked the image, and that is what it says.

The odd thing is that there are two entries for each spouse's name.

The first one for Dulcia goes to the page where her name appears. The second goes to a page of Taylors. The first one for Frederick goes to the page where his name appears. The second goes to a page starting with Quantrill.

I suspect this is just an Ancestry quirk, but one never knows!
(edit -- it is an Ancestry quirk. At the top of the Taylor page it says it is the result for "R" surnames, i.e. Rowe, and at the top of the Quantrill page it says it is the result for "N" surnames, i.e. Nicholls. Ancestry messed it up, added the right image results, and didn't remove the wrong ones.)


If the GRO index says DULCIA, does the certificate not say that?

And ditto to Dea -- what else the certificate says.


Had wondered whether Rowe was her birth surname for sure, but note the birth of Dulcia E Nicholls, mother Rowe, in Exeter reg dist 1926, so it appears Rowe was her birth surname.

Sorry Blossom - haven't solved it yet !!!

What we need is another 'tack' !

Kelly - can you give us ALL the info from that marriage cert please?

Names, addresses, ages, occupations, fathers names + occupations + Witnesses!!!

Why do you believe his age is wrong and where does he claim he was born in Gloucestershire?

You give the address of where the letter came from - do you know the address it was sent to?

Thanks,

Dea x

~~~~~~~~Waves to Dea.

Got to take daughter to hairdresser's, back in a couple of hours. Hope you have got it all sorted by then!

Sue

No Frederick on the 1891 but there is a Minnie Nicholls - wonder if she is M Hazel?

1891 England Census
about William Nicholls
Name: William Nicholls
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Susan E
Gender: Male
Where born: Tewkesbury

Civil parish: Barton St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Gloucester
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Gloucester
Sub-registration district: South Hamlet
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
William Nicholls 45
Susan E Nicholls 44
Florance Nicholls 19
Minnie Nicholls 14
Edith Nicholls 13

1901 England Census
about William Nicholls
Name: William Nicholls
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sushanna
Gender: Male
Where born: Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Gloucester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Gloucester
Sub-registration district: South Hamlet
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 130
Household Members:
Name Age
William Nicholls 56
Sushanna Nicholls 55
James Nicholls 32
Minnie Nicholls 26

Just posting this as a 'possible' for Frederick's father on 1911 - William - Retired Builder, born Gloucester???

BAYLIS, Albert Ernest Head Married 22 years M 44 1867 Master Tailor Maker Gloucester Gloshire
BAYLIS, Martha Anne Wife Married 22 years F 42 1869 Birmingham Camp Head
BAYLIS, John William Ernest Son M 20 1891 Engineer Draughtsman Lancashire Nelson
BAYLIS, Nelson Frank Son M 18 1893 Military Clerk Cheltenham Glosshire
BAYLIS, Horace Victor Pryce Son M 14 1897 Tailors Apprentice Birmingham Saltley
BAYLIS, Dorothea Miriam Annie Daughter F 8 1903 School Cheltenham Glosshire

NICHOLS, William Father In Law Married 46 years M 68 1843 ***Retired Builder*** Tewkesbury Glosshire
NICHOLS, Susannah Mother In Law Wife F 66 1845 Tewkesbury Glosshire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
15300 Reference:
RG14PN15300 RG78PN926 RD325 SD3 ED6 SN55

Registration District:
Gloucester Sub District:
Gloucester Southern EnumerationDistrict:
6 Parish:
Gloucester

Address:
34 Stroud Road Gloucester County:
Gloucestershire

I will see if I can follow it backwards, if only to discount it?

Dea x

Same family in 1901. Father and son are clay quarrymen:


1901 England Census
about Frederick Nicholls
Name: Frederick Nicholls
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Roche, Cornwall, England

Civil parish: St Austell
Ecclesiastical parish: Treverbyn St Peter
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: St Austell
Sub-registration district: St Austell
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
William Nicholls 57
Elizabeth Jane Nicholls 56
Emily Nicholls 21
Frederick Nicholls 18
Ellen Nicholls 15
Thomas Nicholls 59

Actually, cancel that last one, this looks much better:


1891 England Census
about Frederick Nicholls
Name: Frederick Nicholls
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Roche, Cornwall, England

Civil parish: St Austell
Ecclesiastical parish: Treverbyn
Town: Hensbarrow
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: St Austell
Sub-registration district: St Austell
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
William Nicholls 47
Jane Nicholls 46
John Nicholls 20
Lilly Nicholls 17
Willie Nicholls 14
Emily Nicholls 11
Frederick Nicholls 8
Ellen Nicholls 5
Richard Moss 80

I think that father William is a clay labourer (house building, bricks, etc...) and at the top of the census page is a Jane Rowe, aged 71.

There is this one, father is a general labourer. Tetbury is not tthat far from Bristol:


1891 England Census
about Fred Nicholls
Name: Fred Nicholls
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

Civil parish: Tetbury
Ecclesiastical parish: Tetbury
Town: Tetbury
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Tetbury
Sub-registration district: Tetbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
William Nicholls 40
Sarah Nicholls 47
John Nicholls 15
Clare Nicholls 13
Edward Nicholls 10
Fred Nicholls 7
Wm Nicholls 4

On this census it says Dulcie's father comes from Plymouth:


1891 England Census
about Delsie L Rowe
Name: Delsie L Rowe
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George T
Mother's Name: Emily A
Gender: Female
Where born: Bristol, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Bedminster
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Bristol
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Bedminster
Sub-registration district: Bedminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
George T Rowe 27
Emily A Rowe 27
Delsie L Rowe 3

View
Original
Record

View original image

1901 England Census
about Delsie Rowe
Name: Delsie Rowe
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George T
Mother's Name: Emily
Gender: Female
Where born: Bristol

Civil parish: Bristol
Ecclesiastical parish: Bedminster St Paul
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Bristol
Sub-registration district: Bedminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 48
Household Members:
Name Age
George T Rowe 37
Emily Rowe 37
Delsie Rowe 13
Ivy Rowe 9
George Rowe 6
Oley Rowe 5