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Yes, Victoria, that's the Joseph, and that is why I said above:


Oh - and ***the Joseph Barnard + Lovage marriage certificate***?
You're looking for him in censuses without knowing what his father's name is?
Or am I missing it?


Y'know, I kind of feel invisible some days ...

And if anybody actually is following my posts and train of thought -- I think I have found that Joseph Barnard. And the Betsy Barnard who married Phineas Lee. Brother and sister, children of Charles and Louisa.

They are in the 1891 and 1901 censuses as Barnett, and in the 1911 census as Barnard.

This is a theory at present. The two marriage certificates:

Betsy Barnard + Lee
Joseph Barnard + Lovage

are needed, for comparison.

What I don't quite understand is why the people looking for Joseph who married Lovage, and Betsy who married Lee, haven't got their marriage certificates now.

Joseph & Amelia in 1911

BARNARD, JOE HEAD MARRIED 10 M 30 LABOURER GENERAL TOTTHAM MIDDLESEX
BARNARD, AMELIA WIFE MARRIED F 27 ERITH KENT
BARNARD, JANE DAUGHTER F 8 SCHOOL DARTFORD KENT
BARNARD, ROSE DAUGHTER F 6 SCHOOL CRAYFORD KENT
BARNARD, BETSY DAUGHTER F 4 MARDEN KENT
BARNARD, JOE SON M 1 FOOTS CRAY KENT

BARNARD AMELIA (RG14PN9484 RG78PN508 RD188 SD4 ED14 SN104)
Address 24 MARTINDALE ROAD CUSTOM HOUSE WEST HAM County Essex
District West Ham Subdistrict Canning Town
Enumeration District 14 Parish West Ham


NB Joseph is JOE born 1881 Tottenham

1901

Name: Joe Barnard
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Betsy
Gender: Male
Where born: St Commerciall, London, England

Civil Parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip Stepney
Town: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub registration district: Mile End, Old Town, Western
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 5
Household Members: Name Age
John Barnard 33 BORN 1868 RUSSIA
Betsy Barnard 30 BRON 1871 RUSSIA
Joe Barnard 9
Sarah Barnard 7
John Barnard 3




Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 325; Folio: 123; Page: 1.

I believe that Paula is aware of the composition of the household in 1911; as she said:

Amelia Maria Lovage married Joseph Barnard in 1902 in Dartford Kent,
They had the following children:
Jane Amelia Barnard 1903 Dartford
Rose Barnard 1906 Dartford
Betsy Barnard 1908 maidstone
known as Boxer about 1910-1914 either born in Kent or West Ham, Essex.
Charles Barnard 1915 West Ham
John Barnard 1925


That is why I was able to eliminate that family group when looking at the Barnards in West Ham residing with a Betsy Barnard, leaving me with the ones I listed above -- the ones who bear the eerie resemblance to the Barnett household in 1891 and 1901, in which there is a Joseph Barnett who matches Paula's Joseph Barnard:

Name: Joseph Barnett
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Charles
Where born: Edmonton, Middlesex, England
>>>> which includes TOTTENHAM

and also the Joseph Barnard in 1911, allowing for what seems to have been considerable slippage in birthdates all round.

Unless I have simply discovered an eerily coincidental duo of families, which I think is rather unlikely.

But the *marriage certificates* for both couples -- Lee+Barnard and Lovage+Barnard -- are needed to test this hypothesis.

I'm not understanding the significance of that 1901 Russian-born Barnard household.

The son Joe in the family is 10 years too young to be the Joseph in question.

I'd be happy for any feedback on the Barnett-Barnard theory from anyone.

Hi
Try this site " http://romanyconnections.wetpaint.com " They may be able to help, Its a friendly site with people that find they have a connection with Romany/Gypsy in their family.