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Unable to find a marriage, which would have taken place in the mid 1800s, I suspect it may have been a second marriage for the bride.

On their child's birth cert., under mothers name, but above the actural surname, is handwritten the word formerly. Would the inclusion of the word formerly be an indication of a previous married name?

And, when searching the indexes, (I use Free BMD) is there a way of finding or recognizing such marriages that I have overlooked?

Thank you,

Judy

formerly is simply a way of saying previously - it may or may not be the name she was born with.

who and what are you looking for, where and when?

If a woman is on her sercond marriage, you may find that the birth certificate for a child of that second marriage refers to the mother as

Mary SMITH late Jones, formerly Bloggs

where she was born Bloggs, married a Jones and subsequently marries a Smith

That is how it is written,on UK certificates,

Surname ==Smith..........formally Brown,,,,

Smith is the current surname and Brown was the maiden name of the mother,,,

Formally doesnt indicate a previous marriage...

The marriage could have taken place at a later date following more children,or another child,

Is the father named on the birth cert? Is the mother's surname the same as the father's, with the word 'formerly' against a different surname?

'Formerly' means 'previously' .....and is the maiden name; if she had been married twice, and mentioned the fact at the time, the first married name would be included also.

Reg

I think formerly would also be used if she changed her name for any reason, not just a previous marriage, and would include, e.g., her taking her stepfathers last name.

Thank you all very much!

Her surname is the same as the Father's, then under that formerly, and under that the other surname.

Reg will recognize these names

Minnie they are Ellen Ellison and John Jones. Expect that if they married it would have been between 1860 and 1870ish. Don't know which county.

A real headache, I've not asked anyone to search at present as many have already kindly done so. Short of flying from Canada to look at the records myself, I think I'll have to wait until the missing Lancashire parish registers are transcribed and published even to find her birth, which is also missing.

The marriage would be key though, because John Jones from North Wales isn't going to get me what I need!

Clutching at straws!

Judy

Judy -- just a bit of info that could help, depending on what you've done so far.

I gather that Ellison was likely Ellen's birth surname, and the other surname (I don't think you've said what it was) could be a previous married name.

At FreeBMD you can do a search for

marriages
no surname
no given name
spouse's surname Ellison
spouse's given name Ellen
years in range
in Lancashire?

and what you will get is a list of all the names that appear on pages with an Ellen Ellison in Lancashire during the years in question. (If you do the search at peak hours, you might not be able to get results, or it might take a while -- you can always break it down into shorter time periods.)

Then you can just do a "find" down the list to see whether the other surname in question appears on it; if so, this could be her previous marriage.

That only helps if the other surname was from a previous marriage, of course; it could also be an "aka", e.g. from a stepfather, as someone here mentioned.

You can also do the search for

no surname
given name Ellen
spouse's surname Jones
spouse's given name John

and again, skim down the list to see whether there is an Ellen with a surname that interests you who appears on a page with a John Jones.

These backwards searches are just a bit quicker than searching for the person him/herself and having to click on each page number to see who else was there.

Oh. I see she was from Lancashire and he was from Wales, but you don't know where they married. Hmm. Good luck? ;)

From the info in your other thread

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=665575

could this be your Ellen in 1851?

Name: Ellen Ellison
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Kirkdale
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

A vague/inaccurate place of birth for a servant wouldn't be unusual.

Thanks Kathryn

She very well could be. I don't have Ancestry.

If it's possible could you let me know the other names where she is working and/or perhaps even
track her on the 1841 and 1861. I do have Ellen, now Jones, on 1871 even though it is full of errors.

Sorry for delay in replying, we have a family member in hosp. who is doing well but I am away from the keyboard.

Judy

The extra information you asked for

1851 Census

Name: Ellen Ellison
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Kirkdale
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2i
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 123
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Ellison 20 General Servant
Lucy Hamer 14 Nurse
Elizabeth Alice Pickovance 8
Ellin Pickovance 29
Ellin Pickovance 4
Henry Pickovance 1
Joseph Pickovance 40 Flour Dealer & Baker
Joseph Pickovance 6

Address:- 61 Kirkdale Rd, Kirkdale


sylvia

from the earlier thread.... 'cos I find it esaier to do this than keep referring back!!

Hello
John Jones c. 1833, born North wales.
1871 census married farmer, 3 children, living at Tynyffrith, Llanfair Talhaiarn, North Wales.
1881 census, family as above, at 10 Falstaff, Kirkdale, Lancashire, railway porter.
1891 at The Shop, Barton, Cheshire, railway porter, and wife Ellen grocer.
1901 Ellen (nee Ellison) is a widow living with +- 38 year old son Henry (Harry), still in Barton.
Children were Henry c. 1863, Elizabeth c. 1865, Owen Feb. 1869
At least some members of this family also used the surname Lloyd-Jones.
Most grateful for any info.
Judy

- - - -

For reference purposes

1871 Census

Name: Ellen Jones
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Llanfair Talhaiarn, Denbighshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Garthewin and Llanfair
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales

Registration district: St Asaph
Sub-registration district: Abergele
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 46
Household Members: Name Age
Elizth Ann Jones 4
Ellen Jones 40
Henry Jones 8
John Jones 48
Owen Jones 2

everyone born Llanfair Talhaiarn



I wonder if the 1851 Ellen Ellison really is this one?? Mistaking a Welsh woman for one born in Lancashire is a bit of a stretch!! Even the master of the house would note the different accent!!


sylvia

And in 1881 Ellen, Elizabeth and Henry are all born in Lancashire, while John and Owen are down as born in North Wales.

In 1891 Ellen is born in Ashton, Lancashire (same place as noted on the 1881), while John is born in Denbighshire.

In 1901, she's also down as born in Ashton (but this time it has been moved into Cheshire!!), and Henry as born in Birkenhead, same place as in 1881.


These guys can'r decide where they were born!!!


Although, if you have the right people, it looks as though Ellen finally decided she had been born in Ashton!



sylvia

Thanks for picking up my slack there, Sylvia!

I couldn't find that 1871 household for love nor money, for some reason, so I didn't see the Wales birthplace.

I'd put that down to ditto syndrome, and if the head of household was born here, well so was everybody else.

It was the later censuses I'd seen with the Lancashire birthplace. So we came at it from opposite directions. ;)

Judy -- there's a bit of a plethora of possible Ellens in 1841. These are top of the list for Lancashire -- rather than me looking them all up at google maps to see whether they're likely possibles, do you want to pick which one(s) you think would be and we can get you the details?


Ellen Ellison abt 1831 Lancashire, England St Michael On Wyre, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1830 Lancashire, England Liverpool, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1830 Lancashire, England Ormskirk, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1830 Lancashire, England Sephton, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1830 Lancashire, England Wigan, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1833 Lancashire, England Bolton Le Moors, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1829 Lancashire, England Liverpool, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1829 Lancashire, England Wigan, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1828 Lancashire, England Childwall, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1828 Lancashire, England Wigan, Lancashire

Ellen Ellison abt 1835 Lancashire, England Blackburn, Lancashire

Hello Kathryn and Sylvia

Thanks again and how I wish we were sitting together with a cup of coffee, I could entertain you with stories about the frustrations provided by this lot! You likely have your own to share

The 1871 census is a joke. Fortunately I have been able to buy Owen's b.cert. which shows him being born at the same address. The names are correct. Note the Father is years older here.

Both John (apparently) and Owen (definately) were born in N. Wales. A large area containing the County of Denbighshire and more.

Since Ellen's age is mostly consistent and St. Michael on Wyre is nearer to Manchester as is Ashton u L, I think the first one on the list is the best bet. According to Genuki the page for 1841 is PRO HO107/501. 1851 PRO HO107/2270. 1861 PRO RG9/3152. 1871 PRO GR10/4226. Hope this makes it easier.

Wigan or Bolton Le Moors would be the next two but I think less likely. Sephton, now Sefton no, but if they mean Sefton Park which is in W. Derby then possibly as that area seems to recur. All of these places are more closely related to Liverpool than to Manchester.

This might help you with your searches if you have a fast connection: When checking locations I get Genuki up on another page and just alternate pages using their gazeteer to locate the places I am looking for. It is fast and detail or distances are available, if needed.

Thank you again, you have me thinking in a new location with St. Michael on Wyre.

Judy

When you talk about Ashton, is that Ashton under Lyme (just E of Manchester) or Ashton in Makerfield (just S of Wigan)?

St Michael on Wyre is furthest from Manchester. Its across the river Wyre, north of Fleetwood

Thank you.

MGNV - Ashton under Lyne on two of four censues, Ashton on one. The fourth contains too many errors.

Julie - which would you suggest?

Judy

Here's the 1831 Ellen in 1841 (I was just in a bit of a rush last night ... should still be ...)


Name: Ellen Ellison
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Gender: Female
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: St Michael On Wyre
Hundred: Amounderness
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Garstang
Sub-registration district: St Michael

Ellen Bradley 3
Henery Bradley 11
Jain Bradley 39
James Bradley 2 Mo
John Bradley 9
Richard Bradley 5
William Bradley 40 - Farmer
William Bradley 7
Ellen Ellison 10 - Ag Lab


She is the only Ellison in St Michael On Wyre.