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I am trying to find relatives of Walter James Sabine born 9th May 1887 at 67 Leipsic Road Camberwell and who died on 6th August 1924 in Buenos Airies.

His parents were Walter James and. Jessie ( nee Partridge) Sabine.

He married Celia Kate Duke and had a daughter Kathleen May who was born on 18th July 1921.

I have now found out that he was at The Chiltern Hundreds public house in Kent from 1918 - 1922

Births Sep 1921

Sabine Kathleen M Duke Thanet 2a 2099


Marriages Sep 1917?? There is also:

Sabine Walter J Walter Gravesend 2a 1484
Walter Celia K Sabine Gravesend 2a 1484

Marriages Sep 1878 Parents ??

PARTRIDGE Jessie Maud Camberwell 1d 1003
Sabine William Camberwell 1d 1003

Births Jun 1887 ??

Sabine Walter Charles Camberwell 1d 849

I can find no marriage for Celia Kate Duke?

You'd think maybe Walter was her first married name ... but there doesn't seem to be a Walter-Duke marriage.

This appears to be him in 1891 in Streatham.

Walter Sabine
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Jessie M
Gender: Male
Where born: Camberwell, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Streatham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrews
Town: Streatham
County/Island: London
Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub registration district: Streatham
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Sabine 33
Jessie M Sabine 31
Henrietta J Sabine 10
William Sabine 7
May Sabine 4
Walter Sabine 3
Margaret Sabine 4/12

According to his travel details he arrived in the US in 1917. So did he return or is his information being confused with the other Walter Sabine who was born around the same time to George and Sarah?

My mother Kathleen May Sabine was born on 18th July 1921 and her birth was registered on 5th August 1921. Entry no 379 book 108. District Thanet, sub district Ramsgate

Re the marriage of Celia Duke to William Walter, the 1911 census shows them to be living in Gravesend with their surviving son, Charles, with a declaration that they had completed 7 Years of marriage

I'm not sure where we're at with this ;) ... but could this be the Celia who married Sabine in 1917?


Births Sep 1895
Walters Celia Kate Reading 2c 367

Re 1911 census --

Is your Walter Sabine not there? There are 3, none of whom seem to be him. Mistranscribed?


I get what you're saying now about Duke + Walter --

WALTER CELIA K F 1886 25 Gravesend Kent
WALTER WILLIAM H M 1882 29 Gravesend Kent
WALTER CHARLES S M 1907 4 Gravesend Kent

Still no trace of this Celia Duke's birth or marriage to William Walter! So we don't actually know that Celia K Walter was née Duke?

Aha.

Marriages Jun 1904
JENNINGS Percy George Gravesend 2a 1192
> Walter William Hayward Gravesend 2a 1192
Wanstall Rose Gravesend 2a 1192
> Williams Celia Kate Gravesend 2a 1192

She wasn't. At least not when she married him.

And if she was born in 1886, she was mighty young to have had a previous marriage!

Red herring, methinks. ;)

Births Jun 1886
WILLIAMS Celia Kate Gravesend 2a 502


She could very well be the Celia K who married Sabine in 1917. But there's no Duke involved, it seems.

Do you actually have the birth certificate of Kathleen Sabine (1921) showing her mother's full name?

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=54918

Casualty Details
Name: WALTER, WILLIAM HAYWARD
Initials: W H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment)
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 34
Date of Death: 04/05/1916
Service No: 2675
Additional information:
Son of William Hayward Walter, of Gravesend, Kent;
>> husband of Celia Kate Sabine (formerly Walter), of 29, La Belle Alliance Square, Ramsgate, Kent.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. F. 40.
Cemetery: LAPUGNOY MILITARY CEMETERY

"husband of Celia Kate Sabine (formerly Walter)"

I thought -- wha'???

But this means that she was already remarried at the time the memorial entry was prepared.

Celia Kate Williams
married
William Walter
and then married
Walter Sabine


There must have been rationing in effect when they were handing out names to these people!

Her first husband had her surname as a given name, and her second husband had her first husband's surname as a given name ...


But who was Kathleen's mother?

This is getting so complicated, on my mother's wedding certificate my grandmother is described as " Celia Kate Sabine now Inches m s Duke" on this doc there is no reference to a Williams marriage- and her father is referred to as Walter James Sabine (deceased). I shall have to ask my mother if the name Williams means anything

This might have something to do with the problem of Celia Kate Duke not being recorded as having married William Walter. Her father, Richard Duke, married a second time and the name of the lady in question was Mary Williams. So it would appear that Celia kate got married using her stepmother's name. Why?

Backwards, I think!

Duke was her stepfather. She was the daughter of Williams (née ?).

The birth noted earlier:

Births Jun 1886
WILLIAMS Celia Kate Gravesend 2a 502

I have to say I grow ever more confused. But:


Marriages Jun 1904
JENNINGS Percy George Gravesend 2a 1192
> Walter William Hayward Gravesend 2a 1192
Wanstall Rose Gravesend 2a 1192
> Williams Celia Kate Gravesend 2a 1192

Marriages Jun 1898
> DUKE Richard John Greenwich 1d 1888
Palmer Charles Greenwich 1d 1888
Speechley Jane Elizabeth Greenwich 1d 1888
> Williams Mary Ann Greenwich 1d 1888

12 years *after * the birth of Celia Kate Williams.

'my grandmother is described as " Celia Kate Sabine now Inches m s Duke" on this doc there is no reference to a Williams marriage- and her father is referred to as Walter James Sabine (deceased).'

Either you're reading that funny, or somebody made an error when the info was entered.

Her one-time *husband* was Walter James Sabine -- right at the beginning, you said "Walter James Sabine born 9th May 1887".

Marriages Sep 1917
Sabine Walter J Walter Gravesend 2a 1484
Walter Celia K Sabine Gravesend 2a 1484

although I don't see a birth record for "Walter James" Sabine specifically. In fact, he seems to have been registered as Walter Charles:

Births Jun 1887
Sabine Walter Charles Camberwell 1d 849

James may have been a third given name.

Here is Celia's household in 1901:


Name: Celia Duke
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Mother's Name: Mary
Where born: Gravesend, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Milton
Town: Gravesend
County/Island: Kent

Richard Duke 37
Mary Duke 41
Richard Duke 10
Celia Duke 15
Charlotte Duke 13
Ellen Duke 11
Charles William 20
Thomas William 26
Jane William 27


Note that the older children of Mary are still using the Williams surname.
(I haven't checked the image, but I assume "William" should be Williams.)
Interestingly though, the older children are identified as stepchildren.