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looked at it on FreeBMD and its Pilling could have been an accents mix up if the parents couldn't read or write
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"I did find Rosina on the IGI, that is how I know that she was christened as Rosina and not Rose as named in all the census records"
she was named as Rose on all the census records AND on her marriage certificate so why are we looking for a Rosina please? That baptism on the igi is not necessarily yours especially as the named father is George not Patrick or am I missing something here?
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is this a possibility for the Esther on 1881 - eldest son born 1854/55
Marriages Dec 1854 (>99%)
Craddock Esther Birmingham 6d 115
Jewells Martha Birmingham 6d 115
Phelan Pann Birmingham 6d 115
Phelan Patt Birmingham 6d 115
Wedge William Birmingham 6d 115
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That looks like a very possible Ann.
I was thinking that Rose/ina 'might' have been born in Ireland but if her parents married in Birmingham then that substantiates ?? her birth in Birmingham also :-S
Dea Xxx
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Hi Dea, Ann and Shirley,
Thanks for taking the trouble to get back to me. Sorry for the extra p in Simkins and also for omitting the fact that Rose,s name had been spelt Failin on her marriage cert.
I checked out the Rose Malinda Pillin link, but found that Rose on the 1881 census and she is with a different family.
With regard to the IGI entry, I obtained a copy of the Baptismal record referred to and the address given is the correct one for my Rose. I agree that the fathers name is given as George, but wondered if brother George had been incorrectly entered as Father.
Ann, I have Esthers marriage Certificate and she is Esther Craddock and Patrick has been entered as Patt.
Dea, all the children apart from Sarah and Elizabeth appear to have been born in Birmingham.
I do really appreciate all the help I have been given. Just thought I would give it another go before deciding that I,m not going to find a Birth Reg for her.
Once again thanks a lot to everyone.
Jeanette.
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oops, posted this on the worng thread (Sarah Ann) by mistake:
Just summarising baptisms/registrations for family, with possible registrations for the younger children:
Marriage 1854 B'ham
George bp 1855 B'ham
Mary Ann bp 1860 Waltham Cross (Herts)
Sarah??
(Possible baptism match to the Stepney registration for Sarah Phelan posted above may be different parents:
Sarah Dinah Phelan bp 2 Aug 1857 daughter of Thomas Phelan and Dinah Phelan
Mile End Old Town Holy Trinity)
Registrations?
Elizabeth Phalen Oct-Nov-Dec 1861 Edmonton
John Phelan Apr-May-Jun 1866 Aston
Henry Falen Jan-Feb-Mar 1871 Birmingham
The rules on registration were tightened around this time (OK checked it out, 1874 Act). I wonder if Patrick was away and Esther had several young children, whether she had tried applying for relief and discovered that she needed paperwork to seek support?
So then one asks, why baptise Rose/Rosina? Perhaps because Patrick was not her father? George is now old enough to father a child.
Did Esther offer to bring up Rose and stand in as the mother at the baptism? If so, was registration too hard, with its emphasis on declaration by the mother?
However, by the time Rose was born, the Act was in force. Registration was required within 42 days, so the birth would need to be registered between 3 March 1877 and 14 April. In the GRO indexes, it would be in the first or second quarter of 1877.
I note that George and Charlotte's children shown in the 1891 census are born between 1882 and 1891, but the marriage was in 1887. Had Charlotte been married before? She gives her birthplace as Birmingham; the only good match is Charlotte Grove born approx 1857 to William and Esther Grove (1861, 1871 census returns - not seen 1881?) Have you looked at George's marriage certificate to see who the parents and witnesses were? If Charlotte was a spinster, might Rose be Charlotte's child?
If not, then it might be a matter of consistently working through the birth registrations in the first half of 1877, to see if they can be matched to a baptism or a living child shown on the 1891 census or to a death registration. These are the unnamed girls:
Jan-Mar 1877
Brampton
Hackett
Kenwrick
Myers
Scott
Shields
Apr-Jun 1877:
Arnold
Harrison
Hemming
Holland
Monk
- and then there are the 90 registrations with Ros* as a forename ....
- and if you really want to prove a negative, you could then start on the neighbouring registration districts...
PS One of my relatives had to carry around their baptism certificate, since the birth (1880s) was never registered.
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Hi Ivy,
Yes the Stepney reg for Sarah had the wrong parents.
The birth registrations for Elizabeth, John and Henry are all correct, I have the certificates. I had questioned whether Rose could be George,s child, but on her Marriage Certificate,she gives her father as Patrick,gun maker.
On George,s marriage certificate his father is given as George Phealing gun maker and Charlotte,s father is William Grove,silversmith. The witnesses were Emma and Stephen Wood. I have begun to think that Patrick,s name must be Patrick George, the opposite of George,s which is George Patrick. Charlotte is given as spinster.
I will certainly have a look through the birth Reg,s for each quarter of 1877 and look for unnamed girls.
It may be as you say with your relative, her birth was never registered.
Thanks again for all your help, I,ll get back to everybody, if I ever solve all the mysteries.
Jeanette.
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