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My grandfather was called Charles Samuel Stephens and he was born in Lambeth in 1899 I have a copy of his birth certificate which shows his parents as being John Stephens and Mary Ellen Stephens (formally Clark) and they lived in Chiswick. I can't trace any of them on any of the census and have now come to a brick wall. If there is anyone out there that could help I would really appreciate it as my father died back in Feb and I have no one else to ask.

Thanks
Jackie

Possible marriage

Marriages Sep 1899 (>99%)
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Clark Mary Ellen Brentford 3a 320
Hudson George Thomas Brentford 3a 320
Shailer Florence Brentford 3a 320
Stephens John Hare D Brentford 3a 320

guessin

1901 England Census about John H D Stephens
Name: John H D Stephens
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Annie
Gender: Male
Where born: Kensington, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Kensington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Gabriels Chapelry and St James Norlands
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: Kensington Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
Annie Freeman 47
John H D Stephens 26 son
Eliza M Peterson 61
John Price 38
Mary A Price 35
View
Original
Record

View original image

Thats a good find for 1901 as he is listed as married



Jackie,
Looks like you are going to have to get the marriage cert for some idea of how old Mary was when she married.

Yes it says he was partly blind from birth ?
Only way is to buy that marriage cert, sorry.

oh dear I feel this may be him >???

1881 England Census about John Stevens
Name: John Stevens
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Patient
Gender: Male
Where born: Kensington, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Paddington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: "St Mary Hospital" Cambridge Place
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Kensington
Sub-registration district: St John Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: St Marys Hospital

I managed to obtain Mary Ellen and John Stephens marriage cert. It gives John's full name of John Hare Depicke Stephens which sounds very posh to me!!! and his father was called Charles Augustus Stephens and he was a Bank Clerk which I guess must of been a pretty good job in 1899.

It is most definately who I was looking for as Mary Ellen's Address on her marriage cert is the same as on Charles Birth cert.

Now I have another couple of favours to ask:

I can't find John Stephens or Charles Augustus Stephens on the 1911 Census at all.

And I believe that Mary Ellen Clark re married to someone called Arthur Green as I have found her on the 1911 Census showing as being married to this man, but she seems to have given my grandfather charles samuel stephens the surname of green!!!! I am almost 100 percent that this is them on the census as my aunt has confirmed some of the other names shown on the census.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Jackie

I have a suspicion you may find that this is your John's birth:

Births Dec 1873
Penn John Hare D Kingston 2a 283

>>> the 1901 census record posted above doesn't say Kensington on the image, it says Surrey, Kingston, for place of birth.


Now as to why the change of surname, if that's the case ... our work is cut out for us. ;)


As for Mary Ellen in 1911, if that is her -- it would be very common for a stepchild of the head of household to be going by his name in the community and thus recorded under that name in the census.

It was also very common for people to say they were married when they weren't. ;)

Thanks for your reply, I am really confused now, are you saying that John Hare D Stephens could of changed his name? When you refer to the 1901 record above I guess you mean the one that details him living with his mother??
Regards
Jackie

The fact that we can't find John Penn in 1901, but do find John Stephens with the same middle names/initials, is one thing that suggests they are one and the same.

Same given names (it appears), same age, *same place of birth*.

I would get the Penn birth certificate and see what it says, and in particular what the "D" stands for. If it's David, then if it's iffy. If it's Depicke or some version of that, I think it's him. Do you have any idea what the Depicke is and where it comes from?

Do you know anything at all about Annie Freeman? Was that a first husband's or second husband's surname, or her birth surname ...? I haven't been able to find any connection, say by marriage, for Freeman / Stephens and/or Penn.

In 1901, this is Annie Freeman's sister:

Name: Eliza M Peterson
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Sister - unmarried
Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England


1851:

Name: Eliza Peterson
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Philip
Mother's Name: Eliza
Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Chiswick

Philip Penn 56
Eliza Penn 43
Philip Thomas Penn 4
Punetta Peterson 15
William Peterson 13
> Eliza Peterson 11
Mary Ann Peterson 9
> Ann Penn 7 Mo


Well well.

Name: Ann Penn
Age: 7 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Philip
Mother's Name: Eliza
Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England


It appears that Annie Freeman's age is understated a little in 1901.

She is the daughter of Eliza and Philip Penn. Eliza Peterson appears to be the daughter of Eliza Penn before her marriage to Philip Penn.


Will that persuade you? ;)

Ann Penn is with her mother Eliza in 1861.

In 1871:

Jane Dee Solle 45
Annie A Solle 20
Tommaso J Solle 15
> Annie Penn 20 - born Chiswick - visitor - occupation Governess
Josephine Andrews 6 months

Civil parish: Hammersmith
Registration district: Kensington


The name looks like Du Solle, which doesn't make much sense.

Jane is married, no occupation shown, born Chiswick.
Jane's daughter Annie is unmarried, 20, born in New York.
The other daughter looks like Tourmasa J, born Middlesex.
(probably irrelevant, but just in case)

OMG this is confusing ain't it????

Let me get this right, you think that John Hare Depicke Stephens was really Born John Hare Depicke Penn and that his mother was Ann Penn and that she had him before she married????

I have had such a hard time with this family!!!

You guys on here are soooo clever I have searched and searched for months and months and hey presto you get me the info in record time......
Jackie

Annie Penn is back with her mother in 1881, in Hammersmith:

Eliza Penn 72
Mary Ann Peterson 34
> Annie Penn 29 - dressmaker (as in 1901)
> John Penn 7
Laurence Pryde 15
William H. Wright 13
Lilian Wallwork 10
Arthur T. Rice 9

Name: John Penn
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Annie
Where born: Kingston, Surrey, England
-- it doesn't actually say he is Annie's son, but his name appears under hers.

Name: Laurence Pryde - it says Pryse
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Adapted Son
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitechapel, Middlesex, England

William Wright is also adopted son, Lilian Wallwork is visitor, Arthur Rice is boarder.


Now ... where did the Stephens come from ...

Yup! Don't just think it, pretty much got the proof of it now. ;)

Pending that birth certificate ...

Births Sep 1850
Penn Ann Brentford 3 21


This is the only likely marriage I'm seeing:

Marriages Sep 1889
? FREEMAN Thomas Bellingham Brentford 3a 197
King Louisa Brentford 3a 197
? Penn Ann Brentford 3a 197
Young Frank Brentford 3a 197


It suggests that it was a short marriage and they were estranged or she was widowed when she had John.

Thanks so much for your help you don't know how much it means to finally get some info on this family of mine!

Just a thought if Ann Penn had been widowed when she had John H D then why do you think she gave him her maiden name or is that what they did in those days? or do you think she could of had him out of wedlock and then married his father Charles Augustus Stephens at a later date? but then we would expect there to be some record of that wouldn't we?

I have access to the 1911 census but can't find John H D or his father Charles Augustus anywhere.....any idea's on that one.
I am off now to order that cert and will let you know the outcome when it arrives. Thanks again you have all been a great help.

Jackie

I'm not going to speculate until you have that certificate!

I doubt that Ann was ever married to Stephens, or possibly that Stephens even existed. If it was her who married Thomas Freeman, and she was widowed or they were estranged when John was born, Thomas would not have been his father so she could have registered him under her name or John's father's name.

She may have lived with Stephens and/or Freeman and used one or both of those names at one time without being married. There is no record, birth marriage or death, for any Charles Augustus Stephens, so he could simply have been made up out of whole cloth by John when he married! That would leave the question of why he took the name ...

All of these scenarios were not uncommon at all.

C'mon back with that certificate and we'll think on't.

Hi

I finally have the birth cert back for John Penn and yes the name on there is John Hare Depicke Penn, but to confuse things its got his father down as John Penn and his mother as Ann Penn formally Penn how confusing is that.

Please Help!!!!

Jackie

Sorry, Jackie, I did see it back when you posted and was in the middle of a heavy workload and set it aside and forgot to come back. Got your PM, you didn't 'nudge', but I found it. ;)

Will have a look and a think ...