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Good Morning Kath

If David's mother had remarried, the normal way this would be described on the marriage certificate would be "Helen Robertson, now Robertson maiden surname Duff". I agree that because both surnames were Robertson that this could have been omitted and just record as "Helen Robertson maiden surname Duff". I think the flaw in the argument would be that on her marriage to David's father, her father George Robertson seems to be still alive and living at 151 High Street, Musselburgh. A look at Trades Directories for this time may confirm or disprove this.

There is always the possibility that, as you say, David's father died when he was young and he gave a stepfather's name on his marriage certificate. The other possibility is that he was illegitimate. From experience, illegitimate boys often give a "made up" name for their father - usually their own name!

Of course, we have been searching the 1841 census for Helen and her father. If fact we only know that Helen was alive. Her father may have died after she married and before the 1841 census.

The search is complicated because there are so many Robertsons in and around Edinburgh. As I said in an earlier post, my husband's mother was a Robertson and her family came from Leith and moved throughout the Edinburgh area. They also stuck to the same names throughout - loads of Williams and James and Helens and Joans !!

If my previous post makes sense, do you think this marriage is Helen's second marriage, possibly to David's brother or cousin?

HELEN DUFF Pedigree
Female Family

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: DANIEL DUFF Family

marriages:
Spouse: GEORGE ROBERTSON Family
Marriage: 26 APR 1850 Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

If this is the case, David would be only about 4 years of age.

Oh maybe I'm just making things worse!!!!

Kath

Good Morning All,
I've been giving this Helen Duff/Helen Robertson some serious thought.

I've got this gut feeling that we have gone off track somewhere, maybe I'm wrong but that is what my instinct is telling me.
When David Robertson married Jemima Anderson, why would David have given his mother's name as Duff if she was born Robertson?
I am now thinking that the minister could have easily written it down wrong.

I went through the whole Hugh Wallis site for Midlothian & found only one real possible birth for Helen Duff.

HELEN DUFF B. 1823 DUDDINGSTON MIDLOTHIAN
FATHER: DANIEL DUFF
MOTHER: HELEN PENNY

Okay, if she married David Robertson in 1839, she would have only been 16, but they did get married young then didn't they.

What if Helen Duff's husband, David Robertson died & Helen married again to a George ???? It's possible that this George brought David up.
I found 9 deaths for a David Robertson, all St.Cuthberts, 1843 - 1854, so I think a trawl through the St.Cuthberts monumental inscriptions is needed.
I'll have a look later.

Rootgatherer, what are your thoughts on this? Am I going way off track???

Regards
Kath

There is this George who is a Tailor but I think he is too young and it looks like siblings that he is living with and he's not in Musselburgh!

Name: George Robertson
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Midlothian, Scotland

Civil parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts
County: Midlothian
Address: St Leonards St 65
Occupation: Tailor J
Parish Number: 685/2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Margaret Robertson 55
John Robertson 31
William Robertson 25
Richard Robertson 20
George Robertson 40
Peter Robertson 15



Here's the Spirit Dealer in Inveresk

Name: George Robertson
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1788
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland

Civil parish: Inveresk
County: Midlothian
Address: High Street Musselburgh
Occupation: Grainer Sp Deal
Parish Number: 689
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Robertson 53
Elisabeth Robertson 52
Daniel Robertson 21
Elisabeth Robertson 17
David Robertson 15
James Robertson 12
Alexander Robertson 10


EDIT

Pity it doesn't give the number in High Street, Musselburgh. In the OPR marriage it said Helen's dad was at 151 High Street, Musselburgh!

I don't think the George that Potty found is George senior. George was a Tailor and Clothier in 1839. He could of course have become a Grocer / Spirit dealer by 1841 but I think it is unlikely.

Robby the Golf Ball maker is still making Golf balls in 1841.

Here he is with his family.


Name: George Robertson
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Midlothian, Scotland

Civil parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts
County: Midlothian
Address: 20 Ponton Street
Occupation: Golf Ball M
Parish Number: 685/2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Robertson 40
Helen Robertson 40
Stewart Robertson 17
George Robertson 12
Walter Robertson 7
John Robertson 4
Margaret Robertson 5
Mary Robertson 2

Afraid the 2 deaths in Scotlands People for Helen Robertson age 80 are not what we are looking for. She was single!! (doesn't say widow) and her father was George Roberston Scott. Death registered by M. Robertson, 2nd cousin.

I think you may be right that George b. 1811 could be her brother.
I have looked for Helen Robertson birth and found 2

12/2/1813 Inveresk and Musselburgh, father George (private in the Aberdeenshire Militia) and Betty Melville
6/8/1827 Edinburgh City, father George (Golf ball maker) and Helen Skead


Also found birth and baptism for George, brother?
Same parents, George Robertson (now a grocer in Inveresk and Musselburgh), wifte Elizabeth Melville.
Son George b. 25.8. 1815 bapt. 4.9.1815
Son Daniel b. 10.6. 1819 bapt. 20.6. 1819
daughter Elizabeth b. 3.2.1822 bapt. 14.2. 1822
son David b. 12.2. 1825 bapt. 25.2. 1825
son James b. 15.6. 1928 bapt. 29.6.1828.

All births and baptisms registered by the same by the same person, Robert Baxter - even Helen's in 1913.

Same family?

If that is Helen's parents in the 1841, this could be her birth:
HELEN ROBERTSON Pedigree

Birth:
Parents:
Father: GEORGE ROBERTSON Family
Mother: BETTY MELVILLE

Could this be George Senior:
Piece: SCT1841/689 Place: Inveresk -Midlothian Enumeration District: 6
Civil Parish: Inveresk Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 1 Page: 18
Address: High Street



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
ROBERTSON George M 55 Grocer Spirit Dealer Outside Census County (1841)
ROBERTSON Elizabeth F 52 Outside Census County (1841)
ROBERTSON Daniel M 21 Tailor Midlothian
ROBERTSON Elizabeth F 17 Midlothian
ROBERTSON David M 15 Joiner Apprn Midlothian
ROBERTSON James M 12 Midlothian
ROBERTSON Alexander M 10 Midlothian

I wonder if this is Helen's brother? Look at the address and occupation.

Name: George Robertson
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male
Where born: Midlothian, Scotland

Civil parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts
County: Midlothian
Address: Potterrow
Occupation: Tailor
Parish Number: 685/2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Robertson 30
Margaret Robertson 30
Thomas Robertson 7
John Robertson 4
Elizabeth Robertson 10 Mo

Getting nearer all the time!! looks like David has named his son for his grandfather. What a smashing entry in the OPR, you don't often get that much detail - luck is on your side Robby. Your just meant to find this family.

Hi All,

Again, many thanks for all of your help.

I have been on Scotlands People and found the David Robertson / Helen Robertson marriage 21.6.1839.

"David Robertson, Sprit Dealer. Residing in Simpsons court, No. 74 Potter Row in this parish and Helen Robertson residing in No. 151 High Street, Musselburgh in the Parish of Inveresk. Daughter of George Robertson, Tailor and Clothier."

I think this is possibly where "George" comes from, but again there is no mention of "Duff".
I'll try and trace George's family back a bit and see if there is any Duff or Erskine names.

Kath, I think the tree you found on Ancestry is mine. I was quite sure i had got it right until an enquiry on Isabel Bennet put me in doubt,. I will look back in my records to see where i got Robert from.

Hi Folks

Yes this is all looking quite hopeful. If Helen was actually a Robertson who married a Robertson that may explain why Robby is not finding her death. He has almost certainly been looking for a Robertson / Duff death. I think we need her death certificate to get her details. That would help to tie in the census records found and we would see if she was of an age to be married in 1839.

I would still like to see where David junior got the George name for his son. It might be helpful too if we could find where the Erskine in Georgina's name comes from.

I've been on scotsfind tonight and found David Robertson & Helen Robertson 14/6/1839 Inveresk (where David was born)
and again 21st June 1839 at St.Cuthberts.
Probably the one on 14th June was banns read in David's parish
and the 21st June the actual marriage date.

I have been wondering if Helen's name was actually
HELEN DUFF ROBERTSON.

Oh please Rootgatherer come back soon
Regards
Kath

Robby,
Could this possibly be David Robertson b. 1815 & his wife Helen in 1841?

David Robertson
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland

Civil parish: Edinburgh Old Greyfriars
County: Midlothian
Address: Society No 10
Occupation: Joiner I
Parish Number: 685/1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
David Robertson 25
Helen Robertson 25
Elizabeth Robertson 6 Mo

Kath

Robbie,
I think this is the marriage of David Robertson & Helen (Duff)

DAVID ROBERTSON Pedigree
Male Family


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: HELEN ROBERTSON Family
Marriage: 21 JUN 1839 Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland


Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.


Kath

Hi Robby,
I've found a tree on Ancestry with the following details, unfortunately it says 'unsourced' but I feel it is worth checking out.

ROBERT ROBERTSON B. 1790C INVERESK MIDLOTHIAN
MARRIED ISABEL BENNET(B. 1793C) MARRIED 21/1/1815 (FROM IGI)
IN INVERESK.
ROBERT & ISABEL HAD DAVID ROBERTSON B. 18/6/1815 EDINBURGH.

DAVID ROBERTSON B. 1815 MARRIED HELEN DUFF 21/6/1836 ST.CUTHBERTS MIDLOTHIAN.
DAVID & HELEN HAD DAVID ROBERTSON B. 1846 EDINBURGH

DAVID ROBERTSON B. 1846 MARRIED JEMIMA ANDERSON 5/7/1867 EDINBURGH.
DAVID & JEMIMA HAD THE FOLLOWING CHILDREN:
GEORGE B. 1869
HELEN B. 1871
GEORGINA ERSKINE B. 1873
DAVID B. 1876
MARGARET B. 1877

DAVID ROBERTSON B. 1846 DIED IN 1908 CAMBERWELL (STONE MASON)

I think we should take a look at this information Robby, I'm sure that Rootgather will agree as they appear to have all your family members.

Regards
Kath

thanks for that info, i think you are right, he may not have had contact with his family.

I am trying a different tack with Jemima's parents and the other witness.

Got to go for a while.

Many thanks,

Robby

No, Jemima's father was John, mother also Helen.

The only family that seems to fit is George Robertson /m/ Helen Duff.
On the 1851 their first born is George, then Margaret, David & James but their marriage seems to have taken place in 1850 after all the children were born.
Although it seems quite unlikely, would this be possible???
George was a Carter and lived at 25 Potterow, Edinburgh.

Would the first born children be named after grandparents (as a general rule) David and Jemima's first born being George?
I saw the 1851 David who was a Pauper - thought the same, it is possible it could be him..

I have tried to forward to the 1861 cencus also, but no joy there either.

This might be the George that was a witness to the marriage. So it would appear that he was probably David's labourer?

Name: George Corbet
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Margaret
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 685/4
Registration district: St Giles
Civil parish: Edinburgh New North
Town: Edinburgh
County: Midlothian
Address: 116 Cowgate
Occupation: Masons Labourer
ED: 25
Household schedule number: 76
Line: 21
Roll: CSSCT1871_163
Household Members: Name Age
George Corbet 46
Margaret Corbet 48
Mary Corbet 15
Patrick Corbet 6



If that is the case it is looking as if David was either not in touch with his immediate family or he had none apart from his mother.

Scottish naming pattern

First son named for paternal grandfather
Second son named for maternal grandfather (sometimes including his surname as a middle name)
Third son for the father

First daughter for the maternal grandmother (sometimes including either her married or maiden surname)
Second daughter for paternal grandmother (sometimes including her maiden surname)
Third daughter named for the mother.




EDIT

If you have search for Helen's death on scotlandspeople did you do it just using the two surnames? The problem with the name Helen (in Scotland anyway) is that her death could have been registered as Helen, Nellie, Ellen etc.