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Can anyone help, please!
I’m having a lot of difficulty finding birth details of my great Grandfather, John Edward Bird.
The only details I have are that he was married on the 9th May 1891 at the age of 24 to Ellen Norman aged 23. His father name was Thomas Bird and the occupations of both John Edward and Thomas were “Brassworker”.
They had two children, Albert Edward born 31st December 1889 and Alice Gertrude born 13th March 1894.
I know they lived at 29 Bartletts Building, Key Hill, Hockley, Birmingham in 1894/1895.
John Edward died 11th April 1895 after only 4 years of marriage and according to his death certificate he was aged 27.
From the census records there are a number of possibilities to the correct John and father Thomas combination. But I need more information to identify which John. I need more corroborate information. What would pin him down… is having his mother’s name; I only have his father’s name, Thomas, from his marriage certificate.

I’ve found a Thomas Bird that might fit from the census records.
1891 Census
BIRD Thomas Head M 44 Brass Worker (Em'ee) Worcestershire - Dudley
BIRD Sarah A Wife M 34 - Radnorshire - Radnor
BIRD Elizabeth Dau S 19 Dressmaker (Em'ee) Warwickshire - Birmingham
BIRD Alice A Dau S 14 Scholar Warwickshire - Birmingham
BIRD Lilian Jill Dau S 5 Scholar Warwickshire – Birmingham

His wife here is his second wife. When you trace this Thomas back through the 1881, and 1871 census you find his first wife’s name is Mary and he had a son called John.

If I could find what happened to John's wife, Ellen, after he died in 1895, this might give me a lead.

Ellen would be approximately 27, their son Albert would be 6 and their daughter Alice would be 1.
Did Ellen move in with in-laws? Did she re-marry? Could they all have gone into a Workhouse perhaps? She had 2 young children at the time, a 6 year old and a 1 year old. I can’t find any trace of her after 1895.

Incidentally according to Albert’s army enlistment papers in 1914, when giving his next of kin, he stated both his parents, John and Ellen, were deceased and that his next of kin was Alice his younger sister.
If any one can shed some light on this I would be very grateful.

So, have you been unfortunate and he married after the 1891 census? That's a blow! Do the witnesses to the marriage offer any clues?
Jan

Of course, we don't know his birthplace, but just put this on the back-burner!

Births Sep 1865 (>99%)
Bird John Edward Aston 6d 246

Another one for the backburner!!

Deaths Mar 1902 Bird Ellen 29 Aston 6d 274

same family in 1881 as posted by Philip


1881 England Census
Name: John Bird
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Gender: Male
Where born: Dudley, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Aston
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address: 1 Bk 13 Priestley Rd
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel: 48
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Bird 34 (Brass worker)
John Bird 13
Elizabeth Bird 7
Alice Bird 3
Sarah Alice Lloyd 25




Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3020; Folio: 82; Page: 3; GSU roll: 1341721.



Marriage of Thomas Bird to Sarah Ann Lloyd


Marriages Jun 1885 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Benton Eliza Birmingham 6d 159
********Bird Thomas Birmingham 6d 159
Bonell Thomas Birmingham 6d 159
********LLOYD Sarah Alice Birmingham 6d 159

Hang on a minute. Was John's son Albert Edward born 1889? So shouldn't he be around with parents 1891? Did they marry after his birth?

Jan

Marriages Jun 1891 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ashby Myra Birmingham 6d 99
**********Bird John Birmingham 6d 99
Jones Edward Henry Birmingham 6d 99
**********Norman Ellen Birmingham 6d 99

Well spotted, yes Albert Edward was born before they got married. His birth certificate shows him as a NORMAN same surname as his Mother. He must have taken the name BIRD later. Albert also took me ages to find.
Additional information: John and Ellen got married (1891) at St Georges parish, Birmingham. and the addresses they gave were 28 court Brearley Street and 32 court Brearley Street respectively... but I've looked-up these address in 1891 census and they have different occupants. I think they were trying to aviod extra church costs for possibly living in two different parishes.
I don't think he would be living at 35, Billis Street, Edgbaston, as SomersetGirl suggests.
Keep em coming!

What about this one I know its a long shot

Address 20, Bartletts Buildings Hey Hill

Name: Albert Norman
Age: 1 3/12
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Amy
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Amy Norman 51 ---widow
Nellie Norman 22 ---could be Ellen?
John Norman 21 --brass ?
Alice Norman 18
James Norman 10
Albert Norman 1 3/12 ********could he be the grandson to Amy?


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Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2395; Folio 120; Page 3; GSU roll: 6097505.


Regards
Val

Hi val1963,
You're right. This is Albert. His mother is Nellie (Ellen) NORMAN not Amy. Amy was his grandmother. I have his birth certificate that show this.
Thanks for the confirmation.
Give me more..........

Philip, what about those witnesses on the marriage cert?
Jan

Hi Brummiejan,
The witnesses on the marriage certificate are Thomas Lawton and Alice Norman.
Alice Norman is the sister to Ellen and Thomas Lawton I assume to be a friend/bestman to John.
Alice gives no lead and I've searched for Thomas Lawton hoping he might live in Brearley Street but no luck.

I have only just begun looking at parish records - I wonder if the marriage entry might hold any more info? Probably not.
Does anyone happen to know?
Jan

does this help ?


Marriages Jun 1894 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

********Lawton Thomas Birmingham 6d 137
Monk Emma Birmingham 6d 137
********Norman Alice Birmingham 6d 137
Whitehouse Henry Birmingham 6d 137

It's not my place to spend you money for you, but if all else fails you could risk getting that birth cert. If you specify father's name, and it is wrong, it would only cost £4. Personally I never do this as I always fear the name could be slightly out and then the cert doesn't arrive!
Jan

Thomas and Alice mis-transcribed in 1901

1901 England Census
Name: Alice Longton
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: B'ham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 57
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Longton 31
Alice Longton 28
Josiah Longton 5
Thomas Longton 3
William Longton 2 months




Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 2848; Folio: 118; Page: 9.

Thanks Choccy, that looks interesting. I wonder if they appear on the 1901 census, I'll have a look.

Jan... send for which birth cert... how will I know if it's wrong?

The birth for John Edward Bird Birmingham - see post previous page.

Well, you will know if it's right when you get it! Obviously the father's name and occupation wouldn't match what you have. If you specify father's name you would save £3 if it doesn't match.

I don't do this because a lot of my relatives used middle names, and their children sometimes put the wrong name on their own marriage certs. Therefore I would have not received the birth certs even though the right ones.
It's basically a gamble! But don't do this yet, wait and see if anyone comes up with anything better.

I wonder if anyone might be able to find a christening record for him?

Jan

And why have you dismissed this address:

35, Billis Street, Edgbaston, Birmingham

Choccy,
I can't find any entry for Thomas Longton or Lawton. Where did this info come from? What address were they living at?

Thanks Jan,
I will hang on a bit.... see if any one else has more info.
The 35, Billis Street, Edgbaston, Birmingham address does not seem right...Edgbaston is the other side of Brum... and where's his Father, Thomas?... and it doesn't give me any leads. After all that it colud be right but it doesn't help find his birth cert.