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Do you mean Marian Caroline Roberts?

If so, I'm not much help. Even though I've lived in Australia since a child, all my ancestors are English (so far), so I know very little about searching for Australian ancestors.

Ozi

Okay, thanks anyway

Just looking at the children born to James Shaw and Betty. The birth of Tomey 14th May 1820 and James Shaw 19th Dec 1820 are not likely so it could be that this is a list of two families with the same parents's name. -JLe

You have a point Janet but where does that leave me.

I suppose it is possible if James was premature. And surely there couldn't have been 2 families with parents named James and Betty Shaw in the same little church

Hi Harold
I wasn't trying to be negative but Salendine Nook was one of the first Baptist churches in the area and served many non conformists. The surname Shaw is a very popular name in this area and there is the chance that there could be duplicate James and Betty.

Have you noticed the two other Leachs on the 1841 census. (Edmund Leach and I think the other was James Leach)Quite often families continued to live near to each other after marriage so that could sway your thoughts on Betty living near her parents.
Happy searching
Janet

Gosh this really is difficult. Are you saying that the list of 9 siblings identified by Ozi may have different James and Betty Shaws as parents and we don't know which is which.

Also if Betty is a Leach I had assumed she was Edmund's daughter - but I see now this maynot be the case

Wow, help anyone! - how do I proceed?

Janet has a point and I wondered about Tomey & James myself, however these are baptisms and not births. We don't know exactly how long after the births these took place.

With common names and families intermarrying and using the same first names anything is possible. That is why it is always best to have three pieces of information that ties an individual to the family.

Ozi

Hi Janet, more questions. Were the Shaws in this area usually Baptist? I've just seen my father's army book and he was a baptist (but died CofE). Must have got this from his mother Mary Louisa Shaw, the great grand daughter of James and Betty Shaw in question - don't know if that tells me anything or not

So Ozi and Janet, what is your gut feel?

Hi Harold
I can't be sure that the Shaws were or were not baptists but given the list of births I would say yes. I presumed that they were births as I didn't realise that dedications, not baptisms, were recorded until a short while ago .
I was looking for the list of records held by the Huddersfield Family history but I can't just put my hand on it at the moment, that might give me a clue to the records available. If I find it I will come back to you on this and I may be able to look on your behalf, no promises at this stage as after today I shall be away from Huddersfield for a few days.
There was a strong following of baptists in this area A friend of mine is related to the local woollen manufacturers and I know they were all connected to Baptist church rather than the Lindley parish. It is still a reasonably thriving church today. JLe

Hi Harold
just looking for other Shaw children in 1841 and I have come across a
Betty Shaw 40 Ind
Elizabeth Shaw15(rounded down from 17)
John Shaw 15
Sarah Shaw 12
Joseph Shaw 8
? Frances Shaw 3
Living at Quarmby Clough, classed as Lindley cum Quarmby with Lindley .Quarmby is midway between Longwood and Salendine Nook.This could be the other Betty and a deceased husband.We are talking less than one mile away from Longwood/Quarmby/Salendine Nook. I think this adds strength to the other Betty Shaw being the daughter of Edmund Leach.-jLe

Hi Janet, thanks for helping me on this - it really is very good of you.

Are you saying this means (or probably means at least) that my Betty is daughter of Edmund Leech. The Betty indicated above has a deceased husband and we know, for certain, my James is alive because we find him in 1961 living with my great grandad John Hellawell Shaw and his parents.

Best Regards Harry Bower

Harold, I've been following Janet's posts and as she is in, and familiar with, the area her advice is the best.

Good luck with your family research.

Ozi

Hi Harold,
Because four of the children in the list of the other Betty Shaw(1841) tallies with the birth/dedications of the children already listed I am suggesting that she is the other Betty and (presumed) James Shaw. I think your James and Betty Shaw probably just had two children James Shaw and later Allen Shaw. Just to confirm in 1841 your Betty Shaw was living in the top end of Longwood and this other Betty was living at the bottom of Longwood in Quarmby Clough. I don't think we (grs)have established where the name Leach has come from but it has every possibility . I hope this helps in your quest. If I do come across any records of Salendine Nook I will have a look and come back to you at a later date. The local family history are always updating so I will ask next time I am in. Regards Janet Le

just another snippet.....looking at family search at the name of Leach/Leech it does suggest that the family could have come from the Lancashire side of the Pennines which again tallies geographywise. Many of them coming from Rochdale /Milnrow/Saddleworth. To this day there is a Leeches Hill adjoining junction 23 of the M62. Less than half a mile from your presumed family. Not proven but just a point.-JLe

Thank you Janet you have been really helpful and I will follow your suggestion of just 2 children James and Allen

As far as the Leeches are concerned I have just gone into Steve Whitwam's site and he has a Leech Tree starting with Edmund 1770 Lancashire married to Marha Shaw but no Betty or Elizabeth in the children which is disappointing but I do not know how authoritive he is

Best Regards Harry

Hi Harold
sorry for the delay in replying. First of all I asked at the Hudds Family History if they have any transcribed records for Salendine Nook and they checked and told me no. I looked at the web site for Steve Whitwam and it mentions that he is a founder member for the family history society so I am sure his information is correct. Having said that , it would be foolish in this game to believe everything that is written and half the fun/frustration is trying to prove/disprove every 'fact' that is presented. For example whilst looking for some more Shaws of Longwood on the 1841 I found a Michael Leech/Leach aged 45 Inn keeper and next door but one a John Leach/Leech aged 35 Linen Draper and neither of these belong to the Leechs/Leachs of Longwood on Steve Whitwams website. What I find interesting is that the first child to Edmund Leech is a John who died in infancy and then there is a gap of five years before another child is produced,yet at the other end of her life the mother is producing a child at the age of 43 and then another at 45-JLe

Yes, you are right Janet and Michael has just contacted me re other Elizabeth or Betty Leaches married to Shaws. Gosh it is complicated I don't know which way to turn

Hi again Janet - I have just e-mailed Steve Whitwam about my little problem. He did not reply when I tried previously - he probably has big demands on his time but let's wait and see.

We know there is both an Elizabeth and a Betty Leech married to either James or Paul Shaw but not which is which or who their children are.

Funny enough I couldn't find Edmund Leech and Matha Shaw in the 1841 census though according to Steve they don't die until 1847/8.
Best Regards

Hi Harold
Just regarding your last mention of not being able to find Edmond Leach and Martha on the 1841...we seem to be going round in circles. They are living next door but one to Betty,James and Allen Shaw at Longwood which I mentioned before,... seems to sway the idea of their being related as some children stay very near to their parents, after they marry. I don't know where the 'Paul Shaw' has surfaced from.
The actual copy of the 1841 census shows a dash over the 'h' of Leach making the last letter look like a 't' and it states that he is a tailor which is the same as Steve Whitwam's family tree. Again this is why I wouldn't 100% agree with anyone else's tree until I got it straight in my own mind. Its a real puzzler is this, but all the more interesting-JLe