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Tathra was in the mother column but it makes more sense as the location - i know the area well. Yes some odd names surely - which actually helps us at times. The difficult ones were when i found that the siblings of one generation had all used the same names as their generation to name their children resulting in multiple same names in two generations. That got very confusing.

On a different note: where would i go to find out who a convict was assigned to on arrival in NSW?

Oh, I misread that? ;) I thought "Tathra" was in the mother column. You people do have such oddball names down there, I just thought okay ... ;)

I thought about the distance to where the mental hospital was too -- but in 1925, there probably weren't a lot of such facilities. The one where my mum's aunt was in the same era (probably institutionalized just before 1920) wasn't near where any family lived, in fact it was hours away in those days -- it was just the town where the provincial government had built a big psychiatric institution.

But that death date coincides closely with the last apparent sighting of Frances. On the other hand, that could have been the incident that prompted someone, family or authority, to commit her. (Unpleasant things to think about, but if someone had led an unconventional life ... untreated syphilis, for instance, does cause insanity and death, and this was not all that uncommon. Women being infected by husbands was behind some of the very earliest feminist writings!)

i don't entirely rule out 'Lucia' despite its being unusual. My mother's name was 'Mina' pronounced Minor. That's always been a mystery!

Janey- I agree the marriage was likely to be common law.
I have been looking for both surnames.
I'm interested in the 1957 death as the area is Tathra near Bega - Tathra is very, very close to where she was apparently last seen.
Also the 1925 death in mental hospital - although Balmain is a long way from the south coast.

Rachelle -
1: Informant was my mother and her sister. My cousin was local Postmistress for many years and handled Gran's pension details and confirms DOB and place.

4: Lydia did not know what happened to Frances, maybe she disappeared after the birth and left Lydia with relatives to raise - anecdotal evidence from family is that Frances was still with them in 1903 but had gone by 1913. she was apparently seen in the area as late as 1925. My living aunt recalls her mother being approached by a man who told her he had seen Frances in the area. Apparently Lydia was greatly upset by this.

'more questions than answers' - these same questions have been tossed around for years and we don't seem to get much further. sigh ;)

There are various reasons why people "disappear" ... and aren't spoken of. My mother had an aunt she had never heard of, until her death -- 30 years or so after she was placed in an institution as a young woman.

I might consider this death.

17456/1925
BENNETT FRANCES
father JAMES
6O YEARS MENTAL HOSPITAL
BALMAIN SOUTH

As we know, there is no Frances L marriage to a Bennett.


I don't see either a marriage or a death for this birth, a Frances who would be just about the right age and has initial L:

8850 VOL 121/1863
NICOLS FRANCES L
father JAMES
mother MARY A
[district not shown]

(The marriage seems to be James Nicol (no S) and Mary Ann Roberts, 1875, Wagga Wagga, where their other Nicols child was born.)


Can't make any connection to Perkins. But I might check out that death.


One other death I might consider:

7163/1957
PERKINS FRANCIS
82 YRS = c1875
mother TATHRA
BEGA

Frances and Francis are commonly misspelled. -- However, this birth would probably account for that death:

18779/1873
PERKINS FRANCIS MICHAEL S
JAMES
MARY ANN
TAMBAROORA

Hi just a note to say that a cousin of mine is doing his family tree and the name Perkins is on this tree. I understand that his family lived in an area called Pine Hill i think. This area is around Brisbane Im positive around Gympie. Names connected are Mahon, Grieve,but Perkins is definately on it as well. If you would like to contact my name is Vivienne and my email is [email protected] Good luck.

Hi Donna and Janey,

I've been thinking about this situation:

1: Donna who was the informant on your nanna's death certificate?. I know that the BDM entry states that she was 77 years rather than the District that she passed away in, I am just wondering if the informant was an Authorised Agent rather than a relative that information may be out.

2: Perhap's Lydia was not registered, always a possibility dependant on the time that she was born. If her parents were not married some governments would automatically remove the chidlren from the mother if they were not married, hence some parents would not advise of an illegitimate birth.

3: Janey's theory that Joseph and Frances lived together and she assumed his name may be quite correct.

4: Lydia may have been registered under another given name or differing surname. Lydia may have been born to someone else prior to Frances meeting Joseph, unfortunately anything is possible especially given the time and the rural places in Australia then. That could be the reason why Lydia did not know what happened to Frances, maybe she dissappeared after the birth and left Lydia with relatives to raise.

Sorry I may have raised more questions than answers and I know how frustrating it is to have these anscestors who are around one minute and gone the next!

Anyway please advsie re the death certificate..

Cheers

Rachelle

Ah, Donna, my naive little one. ;)

"Lydia's parents - joseph bennett and frances Perkins - presumably married as Frances seems to have used Bennett as her married name."

People lived together without marrying and the woman of the couple used the man's surname - in public records and even on death - all the time. I think it's highly likely you have a case of that here.

I'm still not quite straight though -- Lydia's marriage certificate gives both parents' full names, Joseph Bennett and Frances *Perkins*?

Since the only source you have for the "Lucia" is an electoral roll, I wouldn't be at all sure of it either. Who heard what and how they spelled it, comes into it. Since Lydia's middle name was Louisa, I wouldn't rule that out for Frances's, especially given how rather unusual Lucia would be.

yes - sorry. Typo - was definitely 1893. Lydia Louisa (not Louise) Bennett - have her birthdate from her death cert. ificate. My cousin has applied to the Anglican diocese (Canberra/Goulburn) for a search of christening records for the church in Bodalla...but they do not even reply to the request..
Lydia's parents - joseph bennett and frances Perkins - presumably married as Frances seems to have used Bennett as her married name. The Lucia we found from the 1903 records.

death
13117/1951
MEAD JAMES SAUTELLE
father JAMES WILLIAM
mother MARIA
BEGA

birth
10333/1880
MEAD JAMES SAUTELLE
father JAMES WILLIAM
mother MARIA
BEGA


Where do you actually have your grmother Lydia Louisa's birthdate from?


There is *one* Lydia Louisa born in NSW anywhere around that time:

3076/*1883*
PINKERTON LYDIA LOUISA
father WILLIAM JAMES
mother LYDIA L O
SYDNEY

1194/1873
PINKERTON WILLIAM JAMES
HALLAM LOUISA LYDIA O
SYDNEY


I dunno ... just looks pretty coincidental to me ...


Okay, more ruling out (which you may already have done):

death
7119/1905
PINKERTON LYDIA L
father WILLIAM J
mother LOUISA L
WATERLOO

and mother's death
8787/1947
PINKERTON LOUISA LYDIA OFFER
father EBENEZER
mother UNKNOWN
WAVERLEY


A little tidying up? --

"Lydia Louisa Bennett is my gran. Born 1883 apparently in Bodalla NSW"
Her age at death gives a dob of 1893, not 1883. ?
Aged 20 at marriage is maybe more likely than 30.

"Her M cert listed joseph and frances perkins as her parents."
Perkins, or Bennett? She married as Bennett and her mother was living with Joseph Bennett in 1903. Wasn't it Frances Lucia Perkins, presumably married to Bennett?
Ah, maybe you're saying "Joseph Bennett and Frances Perkins"?

I did spot that James Sautelle somewhere ...

So, what we've done is *rule out* the Frances perkins who arrived in 1887, I'd say? She was rather older than would be expected, and probably had middle name Adelaide. Ruling out has gotta be done. ;)

While leaves you looking for Frances Lucia ...

many many thanx to all who have had a look for me so far. this can be such a frustrating hobby but have found it very rewarding so far....now if i can just find Frances!! LOL

Births Mar 1884 Mead James Samson Holborn 1b 713 - not my GF. He was James Sautelle Mead - we already have his line all the way back to the boat thanks to this site.

if the Frances from Birmingham was Frances Adelaide then she is not the one. Pity - thought i might have been on to something. Does anyone have access to records from Victoria?

sorry i'm not acknowledging fast enough, ladies! I am not on here very often...doing the best i can to keep up. Your help is appreciated especially from interstate.

Thank you Janey - sorry i didnt give you info re gran. The info you have found re: Lydia Louisa Bennett is my gran. Born 1883 apparently in Bodalla NSW. Apparently an only child, Her father was joseph bennett. Her M cert listed joseph and frances perkins as her parents. (I have the original 1913 cert) As i said before we have no BDMs at all for Frances Lucia Bennett/Perkins. She is listed in 1903 as Bennett with Joseph Bennett living in Bermagui NSW. After this she literally 'disapeared' off the face of the earth. There may have been some scandal - my elderly aunt thinks she may have 'run off'. My grandmother never spoke of her mother and my mum and her siblings never met nor heard about her. The bennett line traces back to the Shoalhaven area around Terara.

Yes ... some acknowledgement would certainly be nice ...

Nudging for Donna...hopefully you'll see the replies

No probs Janey

Ta, Rachelle!

Gotta rule out all the non-starters. ;)

hI jANEY,

I checked the QLD birth records for Lydia Louise Perkins and the one born in Gympie, QLD shows parents as Frederick Perkins and Louisa Bosetta Keyser. There is also a sibling May Lydia born in 1894.

Lydia Louise Perkins died in 1894 so can't be the one you suggested as a possiblilty.

Regards

Rachelle