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Since the previous post, we have discovered that Adam was probably the son of Thomas Brown and Beatrix Kyle who married in Hawick on 24 July 1773. Thomas Brown was also a shoemaker in Hawick and a Burgess of the town. We think that around 1820 Adam Brown became partially paralysed and gave up shoemaking with his father in favour of his hobby of portrait painting. Some of his paintings are in Hawick Museum. Not long afterwards he left his "wife" Agnes and the town of Hawick for good and went to live in the North East of England where he met an Eleanor Longstaff in Alnwick with whom he had four further children. Adam continued making a living from portrait painting in Northumberland until he died of cholera in Newcastle upon Tyne in 1853.
If anyone knows something that might contradict the above, please reply.
Colin

Hi Janey
My apologies. I will try to get a copy of Adam's birth record from Scotland's People myself
Thank you
Colin

Colin, you do need to get yourself some basic grasp of some stuff.

You seem to assume that someone else has a a secret stash of records, or superhuman powers of deduction, or a magic wand.

People can do things to rule "possibles" in or out, as Helen did for that Robert, for instance, but so can you.

Why would people report inaccurate places of birth? They were born in one place but grew up in another, they were living somewhere distant from their origin and the census worker had no idea what they were talking about when they named their place of birth, someone assumed they were born in the same place as their spouse or child or parent or were born where they were living ... whim ... The fact is that it happened all the time.

English death certificates up to 1866 did not even show age, as a rule. Occasionally they gave some personal info -- for a very young child, the parents' names, for instance. The address of death is recorded, and the name of the informant of death may be an important clue, if it is a spouse or child, depending on what one is looking for. (I'm still trying to figure out who the complete stranger named as "grandmother" on my gr-grfather's niece's death certificate was.)


"Has anybody seen the birth record of Adam Brown who was born in Jedburgh in Nov 1777?"

Who would have seen it?? Unless someone spent their money to look at it, at ScotlandsPeople, presumably. Have you done that?

Really, nobody here is superhuman or clairvoyant, or hoarding secret information. Just asking somebody to find something for you, or prove or disprove a theory of yours, doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Hi All
Has anybody seen the birth record of Adam Brown who was born in Jedburgh in Nov 1777? Does it say his father was a shoemaker by any chance?
Colin

Going back to the 1851 census in Scotland where Agnes is registered as a widow with two sons. One born c.1821 and the other born c.1823. Presumably they were the children of the (deceased) Adam Brown.

It would seem unlikely the Adam Brown found living in England in the 1841 and 51 census is one and the same Adam Brown from Scotland.

Given the fact Adam in England had children born around the same dates as those born in Scotland.

Hi Helen
Thanks again
The family you have identified are too young if they were christened when babies. In the Censuses Thomas was b1813, James b1819, Margaret b1822 & John b1832
By the way, Adam Brown & Margaret Atkinson were married in Morpeth on 10 Apr 1824

This may be the Adam Brown mentioned in the above census … check out the rough birth year of children, Thomas and Margaret. See if they match up with those below.

Father: Adam Brown,
Mother: Margaret Atkinson

ADAM BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 31 MAR 1839 Roman Catholic, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

2. MARGARET BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 02 MAR 1841 Little Bedford St, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

3. WILLIAM BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 02 DEC 1831 Roman Catholic, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

4. THOMAS BROWN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 27 FEB 1835 Roman Catholic, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

Can't find a marriage however, for Adam Brown and Margaret Atkinson ..


Quite unusual to have the mother's maiden name recorded on early English christening records. This is a wee bonus for anyone who can definitely verify a family connection. May not apply to you in this case.

English death certs give very little info re the deceased's family. They give cause and place and date of death, and the informant's name.

Hi Helen
Thanks once again for your interest.
In the 1841 and 1851 Censuses, the Adam Brown Shoemaker of Tynemouth is living with his sons Thomas, James and John and daughter Margaret and is recorded as being a widower which is why I am so interested in him. So the marriage you have highlighted is not with him.
In the same censuses, Adam is recorded as being 61 and 75 years old respectively. By the 1861 census he has died.
Colin

This is just a guess... but could this be the marriage for Adam Brown in Tynemouth.

Marriages Jun 1845
Brown Adam Tynemouth 25 456

Either:
Catherine Fenton
Marianne Hodgson
Helen Napier
Mary Wood

English marriage certificates record father's name.

You could try looking for an Adam Brown with one of the female christian names in the following census. Might help eliminate a possible Adam.

Hi Helen

I am remembering that Agnes said she was a widow in 1851 Census but if she had been separated from her husband for a time she might not know for sure.

Can anybody tell me what the English statutory death records show before I order a copy of the record?

Colin

Possible death for the Adam Brown living in Tynemouth.

Deaths Mar 1861
Brown Adam Tynemouth 10b 118

Not sure if the English death certificates record the deceased father's name.

Keep in mind: On the 1851 census in Scotland, Agnes states she is a 'widow'

I have found an Adam Brown who was born in Jedburgh in Nov 1777. His parents were John Brown and Janet Scott. His siblings were
Agnes b 1770
Archibald b 1773
Betty b 1775
Could this be the man I am seeking?. Marriagewise he is about the right age for Agnes Scott viz 5 years older. The names of his siblings apart from Betty feature in future generations

Have you searched on FreeBMD for a possible death for that Adam please? If you can find a likely one it may be worth buying the death certificate to check who the informant was - if only to elimainate him!

Quite by accident, I have found an Adam Brown shoemaker living in Tynemouth in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. He gives his age as 61 and 75 respectively and indicates that he is a widower and was born in Scotland. He does not appear in the 1861 census which means he probably died between 1851 and 1861. Everthing seems to fit!!!
Does anyone know any more about this man or can they find out?

Hi Helen

I think the couple you have located in the 1841 Census are almost definitely the Robert Brown and Agnes Scott who were married in 1803 and came from the Selkirk and Melrose parishes respectively. Since my Agnes Brown is in Hawick in the 1841 Census, I am now pretty certain that the 1803 marriage is not my gggg grandparents'

Regrettably this means that I am no further forward in locating any BMD records for Adam Brown

Colin

My own hunch is that Robert Brown and Agnes Scott are not your family.

I would not be inclined to imagine the name Robert being changed to Adam ... although I know name changes do occur sometimes.

You say your Adam was a shoemaker to trade.

You could maybe try and find Robert Brown in the early census and see what his occupation is .... just for interest. It would be just like the thing if he also turned out to be a shoemaker !



Edit: Might this be them ? Small chance .. but worth keeping on the back burner.

1841 Census

Piece: SCT1841/799 Place: Melrose -Roxburghshire Enumeration District: 15
Civil Parish: Melrose Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Ladhope
Folio: 16 Page: 11
Address: Island

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
BROWN Robert M 65 Flesher Outside Census County (1841) Galashiels deleted as Village name
BROWN Agness F 55 Roxburghshire
SCOTT Jon M 20 Flesher Apprentice Roxburghshire Forename: Difficult to decipher
SCOTT Hellen F 15 Female Servant Roxburghshire

Note: Robert states he was not born in the county (Roxburghshire)
Could this fit in with the fact on Robert Brown and Agnes Scott's marriage record states Robert was from the county of Selkirk.

Hi Helen

You are right in saying there are no recorded children by Robert Brown and Agnes Scott. Do you think that this might lend support to the possibility that they could be my gggg grandparents? Brown and Scott are very common names in the Scottish Borders.

Colin

Hi Ellen

Thats my Agnes in the1841 Census. Note that it says she was born in Roxburghshire in this one and in Ashkirk, Selkirkshire in the 1851 Census. I am inclined towards the latter. Am I right?

Regards Colin

1841
Name: Agnes Brown
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1786
Gender: Female
Where born: Roxburghshire, Scotland

Civil Parish: Hawick
County: Roxburghshire
Address: Sandbed
Occupation: Ind
Parish Number: 789
Household Members: Name Age
Agnes Brown 55
James Brown 16