Find Ancestors

Before anyone shouts at me, I've put a message on the other thread (Wayne Tracey's) to say ignore the bits there, and am starting again.

Working backwards.

Maurice Allan McDonald b Wandsworth, Mar Q, 1d/1508, mmn Daly, exact dob 2 Feb 1920, according to death in Bristol in 1990.

Married Joyce Mary De Saulles, 12 Jan 1946, Surrey NE, 2a/196, his father Allan John McDonald, Railway Clerk.

Allan John McDonald m Ellen Theresa Daly, Jun 1915, Camberwell, 1d/2257. Not got marriage cert. Both died Bristol 1970 and 1980 resp. Allan John's dob 28/2/1888.

1911:

MCDONALD, Allan John Son Single M 23 1888 Railway Clerk London East Dulwich VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
2473 Reference:
RG14PN2473 RG78PN83 RD27 SD2 ED14 SN258

Registration District:
Camberwell Sub District:
Camberwell South Enumeration District:
14 Parish:
Camberwell

Address:
19 Thorncombe Road E Dulwich S E

At same address:

WHITELOCKE, George Henry Head Married
13 years M 36 1875 Clerk Foreman Joiner's London Peckham VIEW
WHITELOCKE, Emily Caroline Wife Married
13 years F 34 1877 I of W Cowes VIEW

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
2473 Reference:
RG14PN2473 RG78PN83 RD27 SD2 ED14 SN259

Registration District:
Camberwell Sub District:
Camberwell South Enumeration District:
14 Parish:
Camberwell

Address:
19 Thorncombe Road E Dulwich S E

1901:
Name: Allan John McDonald
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Allan McDonald
Mother's name: Catherine McDonald
Gender: Male
Where born: Dulwich, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
Town: Dulwich
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Camberwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 71
Household Members: Name Age
John Allan McDonald 40 - no occupation, no birthplace
Catherine McDonald 37 - born Scotland
Allan John McDonald 13 - born Dulwich
Catherine Hargston 72 - aunt, born Ireland.

The Clark family also listed are next door - no relation.

However, living with the McDonalds is George Henry Whitelock 26, Clerk Postal Tel Factory, b Peckham and wife Emily Car(oline) 24, b Cowes, Isle of Wight.

1891:

Name: Catherine Mc Donald
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William Mc Donnell (rubbish - he lives 13 doors away!)
Gender: Female
Where born: Scotland

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: East Dulwich
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Camberwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Catherine Mc Donald 28 - married, b Scotland
Allen I Mc Donald 3
Frederic R Mc Donald 2/12
Catherine Hargeton 40 - aunt, single, b Ireland.

The McDonnells and Sibley are a different address.

Allan John McDonald b 28 Feb 1888, Camberwell 1d/870. Father John Allan McDonald, Master Mariner, mother Catherine Turley.

At that stage, no marriage found for John Allan McDonald and Catherine Turley - see later.

No sign of John Allan on any other census than 1901. No sign of Catherine McD in 1911. No death for either of them.

Catherine Turley b 6 May 1861, Glasgow, father James Turley, fruit merchant, mother Bridget Hargeton, married 29 Jan 1856, Glasgow.

1861
James Turley 23, coachman, b Ireland
Bridget Turley 26 b Ireland
Elizabeth Turley 6 b Glasgow
William Turley 14, visitor, b Roxborough.

Other children born to James and Bridget, Glasgow, are Mary 1858 and James Francis 1866.

Their marriage cert says his parents Bernard Turley, carter, and Elizabeth Cook (unclear), and Owen Hargiton, lab, decd and Judith McCash (unlcear), witnesses James McMillen and Catherine Hargeton.

Possible Bernard found on Scottish census, but wife not Elizabeth.

None of these found anywhere else. So help appreciated.

BUT, a kind Susan found a marriage of John Allan McDonald to Catherine Turley, New South Wales, 1887 and the cert arrived today. 10 Mar 1887, St Mary's RC Church, North Shore. He is a Master Mariner, she is a Lady (?). He is born Scotland, usual place of residence Scotland, she is born ENGLAND!!!! usual place of residence North Shore. No ages, no parents, no father's occupation. Witnesses Joseph and Alice Gailey.

This must surely be my John Allan and Catherine. As must the Catherine I have born in Glagow, mmn Hargeton.

Can anyone tell me I am wrong, and what is going on with this family? Both Scotland and Overseas are new areas to me.

Moody Blue, I've supposedly got him on the 1901 census. There' s several John Allans in Canada (mostly farmers).

EDIT, you've probably already realised that.

Yes, I realised it pretty quickly and that is why I deleted..................sorry didn't realise that you would have already seen my entry on your thread though!

MB



Edit:

re MadMeg's suggestion below, I have re-entered this death just to eliminate it as he had been found in 1901 census and this one says born Canada...I think.

Ontario, Canada, Deaths, 1869-1936 and Deaths Overseas, 1939-1947
about John Allan McDonald
Name: John Allan McDonald
Death Date: 2 Aug 1889
Death Location: Glengarry
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Birth Location: Lot 10/5 Con Lancaster
Archives of Ontario Microfilm: MS935_56

Have you seen this birth entry?

Australia Birth Index, 1788-1922
about Catherine Turley
Name: Catherine Turley
Birth Date: 1864
Father's name: Turley
Mother's name: Mary
Birth Place: New South Wales
Registration Year: 1864
Registration Place: Orange, New South Wales
Registration Number: 12420

Oh heck, Moody. I said I was no good at overseas stuff. And never thought of looking for a birth in NSW - but on her marriage cert, she says she is born England, so is this NSW one just a fluke? Or maybe several members of the Turley family went to Oz, and another son named his daughter Catherine too.

The Marriage cert says John Allan is a Master Mariner, and that is his occupation on his son Allan John's birth cert in London.

Can we find another marriage in Oz for this Catherine Turley?

Off to have a look.

Not found a marriage for your Catherine Turley. There's this birth:

Australia Birth Index, 1788-1922
about Edward W Turley Name: Edward W Turley
Birth Date: 1867
Father's name: Edward W Turley
Mother's name: Mary
Birth Place: New South Wales
Registration Year: 1867
Registration Place: Rylstone, New South Wales
Registration Number: 1591B

Wonder if this is relevant?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Catherine Turley Name: Catherine Turley
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Year of Registration: 1908
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 43
District: Dover
County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 637 (click to see others on page)

No birth in UK abt 1865 that I can find.

EDIT - now found a couple of possibles.

PS It would have been better if you hadn't deleted your Canadian death, but edited it to say you realised he'd been found in 1901.

EDIT - Moody Blue has put the Canadian death back again - thanks.

Cos I'm not 100% certain that he WAS found in 1901 - may have been one of his children who completed the census, and didn't know where dad was born or what his occupation was, and didn't realise they shouldn't put him on the census if he wasn't actually there. Seems odd that if it were John Allan or his wife who gave the information that they didn't know his details.

Is that it? Only one person able to help me.

EDIT - I'm too impatient, there's a gang now.

This is the only one who may fit that I can see:

1841 Scotland Census
about Barnard Turley
Name: Barnard Turley
Age: 56
Estimated birth year: abt 1785
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Glasgow St Mungo
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Sommervils Close
Occupation: F Lab
Parish Number: 644/1
Household Members:
Name Age
Barnard Turley 56
Mrs Turley 38
Margt Turley 8
James Turley 6
Joseph Turley 1
John Brown 17
Rody Brown 11
Mathew Mcroy 22
James Bredie 30

Catherine

1851
Name: Bernard Tirley
Age: 70
Estimated birth year: abt 1781
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name: Mary Tirley
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Parish Number: 644/1
Civil Parish: Glasgow College
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 136 High St
Occupation: Pensioner Army
ED: 14
Page: 2 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 7
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1851_159
Household Members: Name Age
Bernard Tirley 70
Mary Tirley 52
James Tirley 14
Joseph Tirley 11
John Brown 28
Roderick Brown 22

Thanks Catherine, I didn't find that one. The same family are in Glasgow in 1851, Bernard Tirley is an army pensioner, 70, b Ireland, wife Mary, looks like 50-something, Ireland, James 16 Ireland, Joseph 11 Glasgow, John and Roderick Brown Ireland.

1861
Mary makes it to Civil Death Records.
Name: Mary Turley
Age: 66
Estimated birth year: abt 1795
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 644/2
Registration district: High Church
Civil Parish: Glasgow College
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 136 High St
ED: 46
Household schedule number: 6
Line: 1
Roll: CSSCT1861_98
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Turley 66
Joseph Turley 18
Richard Robert 27
Elizth Hatton 35
Mary Mc Iernut 24

Mitchell library for poor relief records.

1841
Name: Cathrine Turly
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Barony
County: Lanarkshire
Address: London Road
Parish Number: 622
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Turly 50
Cathrine Turly 15
Sarah Turly 10

1841
Name: Barnard Turley
Age: 56
Estimated birth year: abt 1785
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Glasgow St Mungo
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Sommervils Close
Occupation: F Lab
Parish Number: 644/1
Household Members: Name Age
Barnard Turley 56
Mrs Turley 38
Margt Turley 8
James Turley 6
Joseph Turley 1
John Brown 17
Rody Brown 11
Mathew Mcroy 22
James Bredie 30

Ellen beat me to it. What are the Mitchell library records please? Why might they be relevant here? Where do I find them?

That's sort of pointing to James being born 1835/6, no big deal, but mother is not Elizabeth.

Please do keep looking folks, I'm very grateful.

Can I ask your opinions on the marriage of John Allan McDonald to Catherine Turley in NSW - do you think it's likely than it's my pair, him being a master mariner? And as Catherine McDonald states born Scotland in 1891 and 1901, do you think she was lying on her marriage? Or maybe a mistake was made.

Not that it matters too much, cos I'm pretty confident that my Catherine Turley is the one born Glasgow, mmn Hargeton.

Is everyone else as confident as me?

I'm sure you've all been looking for John Allan McDonald b 1861.

Any ideas on him?

Would the church in NSW be likely to help?

Incidentally, the witnesses at his marriage, Joseph and Alice Gailey, appear to be brother and sister - I've found emigration records for both of them, plus a brother William.

Hi Madmeg,

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941
about John Allen Mcdonald
Name: John Allen Mcdonald
Probate Date: 18 Apr 1916
Death Date: 1 Nov 1915
Death Place: Surrey, England
Registry: London

John Allen McDonald of 19 Thorncombe Road East Dulwich Surrey died 1 November 1915 at sea. Probate London 18 April to Catherine McDonald widow. Effects £400. 4s



England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),1861-1941
about Catherine Mcdonald
Name: Catherine Mcdonald
Probate Date: 24 Dec 1919
Death Date: 26 Nov 1919
Death Place: Surrey, England
Registry: London

Catherine McDonald of 19 Thorncombe Road East Dulwich Surrey widow died 26 November 1919. Administration London 24 December to Allan John McDonald, Railway Clerk, Effects £5810. 8s

Deaths Dec 1919
McDonald Catherine 56 Camberwell 1d 800


They were living at the same address (19 Thorncombe road) as their son was listed at on 1911 census. Perhaps Catherine was out visiting when the census was taken and John Allan at sea?

Dont know if this is your John Allan McDonald?


Royal Marine Medal Roll 1914-1920
MCDONALD John Allan Gunner RMA/6086(RFR/B/419)

Death of Aunt Catherine Hargeton:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Catherine Hargeton
Name: Catherine Hargeton
Estimated birth year: abt 1827
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 80
District: Camberwell
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: [56]29


also, birth and death of John & Catherines other son:

Births Mar 1891
McDonald Frederick Robert Camberwell 1d 875

Deaths Jun 1891
McDonald Frederick Robert 0 Camberwell 1d 579