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Frederick's marriage from www.familysearch

Frederick Breeze


record title: England Marriages, 1538–1973

groom's name: Frederick Breeze
groom's birth date: 1838
groom's age: 24
bride's name: Martha Timms
bride's birth date: 1843
bride's age: 19
marriage date: 1862
marriage place: Chapel En Le Frith, Derbyshire, England
groom's father's name: Lionel James Breeze
bride's father's name: Thomas Timms
indexing project (batch) number: M04851-5
system origin: England-VR
source film number: 1041916



sylvia

This looks like the Frederick that Lynne found on the 1841 Census with mother Susannah


1851 Census

Name: Frederic A Breeze
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation: Son
Father's name: Frederick A Breeze
Mother's name: Susannah Breeze
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Yarmouth, Norfolk, England

Civil Parish: Lowestoft
Town: Lowestoft
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England

Registration district: Mutford
Sub-registration district: Kessingland

Frederick A Breeze 30 Hair Dresser
Susannah Breeze 31
Frederic A Breeze 10
Debia H Breeze 8
Susanna Breeze 6
Joseph A Breeze 3
William E Breeze 1



but equally, this Frederick could be this one from www.familysearch

Frederick Altons Breeze

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: Frederick Altons Breeze
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 22 Mar 1841
baptism/christening place: Yarmouth, Norfolk, England
father's name: Frederick Altons Breeze
mother's name: Susanna Breeze
indexing project (batch) number: I03224-9
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1545220



Also shown as Frederick Aldous Breeze on his marriage to Edith Tizard in 1896.

so his middle name could be Altons or Aldous




sylvia

In 1871, Frederick Albert was a Railway Storekeeper living in Mansfield, Nottinghamshire.


What was his occupation and address on his marriage certificate?



sylvia

I thought that Susannah with Frederick in 1841 might be a single mother but now that Sylvia has them in 1851 perhaps I am wrong. Could Frederick A Breeze, Hairdresser, have used the names Lionel James in his profession as a hairdresser?

It is so odd that Lionel only appears on the marriage cert?????

I know, it's weird isn't it


I had thought the same as you, that Lionel was an acquired father, and that Frederick Albert was illegitimate


I've looked on several other sites, and there is no sign there of a Lionel James or son Frederick Albert



sylvia

Here is Frederick Aldous marriage from www.familysearch


record title: England Marriages, 1538–1973

groom's name: Frederick Aldous Breeze
groom's birth date: 1841
groom's age: 55
bride's name: Edith Tizard
bride's birth date: 1856
bride's age: 40
marriage date: 21 Mar 1896
marriage place: St. Mary'S Church, Whitechapel, Middlesex, England
groom's father's name: Frederick Aldous Breeze
bride's father's name: Richard Tizard
indexing project (batch) number: M00067-0
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 94707




According to the marriage certificate on ancestry, this Frederick was a Bachelor, age 55, a carpenter & Joiner. His father was deceased, and a Stationer



sylvia

I assume Lionel was alive as the marrige certificate doe's not state otherwise.

What an intriguing scenario, never thought of that possibility. It could explain some descrepencies in his age in some of the records and why I have not found any siblings yet.

Thanks Lynn

GB

SylvialnCanada

Fredericks occupation on his marriage cert. is that of Railway Clerk. His address is Town End, Chapel -en - le -Frith, Derbyshire.

Thanks
GB

Hi Folks

Frederick Aldous Breeze can be ruled out. In 1871 he is in Portsea with his first wife Maria, the birthplace given is wrong but I'm sure it's him. They are spelt Breese. They married in Portsea in 1867.

In 1881,1891 & 1901 he is with Edith although the 1891 has her as Ruth (it does look like Ruth on the image but places of birth plus children's names clinch it). Can't find an appropriate death for Maria. So when he finally married Edith in 1896 he wasn't a bachelor. Widower or Bigamist more like!

Julie

Yes. can rule out Frederick Aldous Breeze.

Frederick Alfred Breeze seems to have appeared on his wedding day in 1862 in Chapel en le Frith Derbyshire.

In 1871 the family are living in Quarry lane, Mansfield, Notts.

By 1881 there are living at Whessoe Lane, Darlington

He and Martha had 5 children Lionel James 1863, Alfred Frederick 1866, Annie Rebecca 1869, Sarah Maude 1871 and Albert Edward 1873

Frederick died there on 18th August 1884 and his age is given as 51 on the death certificate. The informant was L J Breeze his son.

Graham

the fact that it does not say deceased on the marriage certificate for Lionel does not mean that he was not dead


It all depends on what the Vicar asked


What is your father's name and occupation?

vs

What is your father's name, occupation, and is he still alive?



many many people have found themselves on a wild goose chase looking for a living father when he was dead



The reverse can also apply of course ............ someone might say father is dead, when he was not. That often means a family split.



But I do have to say that it is looking more as if Lionel was a figment of Frederick Alfred's imagination


The fact that F Alfred is a Railway Clerk, while saying that his father was a Gent .......... does imply something happened. Either Lionel died whil F A was young, or he abandoned the family, or he lost all his money, or he's a figment


BTW ..... I posted that information on Frederick Aldous as a means of ruling him out. I had already traced him further forward in the census, and also backwards.

I was in no way suggesting that he was F Alfred


sylvia

Working on the theory Frederick, might not have been Frederick and that he had a vivid imagination and that his death cert, says he was 51. I looked at the 1841 census for ALFRED BREEZE. he is there aged 7. Mother ANN (40) Looks like LEONARD (12) LEONORA (10) and RICHARD (5) IN BURNHAM NORFOLK. Ties in with 51 years

In 1851 ALFRED and RICHARD are living in ALTON ,HANTS listed as son in laws ? of SAMUEL HUGGINS hIs wife ANNE and their one year old son.............you got it FREDERICK !!!

1861 census, RICHARD carriers on living and working in Alton but there is no record ( I can find ) of FREDERICK or ALFRED until FREDERICK ALFRED , son of a Gentleman, pops up to marry MARTHA TIMMS, a DERBYSHIRE farmers daughter in 1862

Am I making the hole to fit the peg or what ? I would love to hear your opinions.

Thanks

GB

I think that the boys being listed as sons in law should be stepsons?

I found this marriage -

Marriages Dec 1846 (>99%)
Allen Henry Walsingham 13 875
**** Breeze Ann Walsingham 13 875
Creamer Charles Walsingham 13 875
Huggins Henry Walsingham 13 875
**** HUGGINS Samuel Walsingham 13 875
Lane Frances Walsingham 13 875
Lewis Elizabeth Walsingham 13 875
Spooner Charlotte Walsingham 13 875

I think that possibly Ann has adjusted her age, slightly?

from familysearch.org


unfortunately it doesn't give ages or status



record title: England Marriages, 1538–1973

groom's name: Samuel Huggins
bride's name: Ann Breeze
marriage date: 04 Oct 1846
marriage place: Fakenham, Norfolk, England
indexing project (batch) number: I03227-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1595483




and Lynne is quite right ................. Son-in-Law was commonly used instead of saying Stepson


so Alfred and Richard are the sons of Ann, born before her marriage, but accepted by Samuel


sylvia

This is what we are up against - this is Leonora Breeze in 1861.
COLT, George N Head Married M 37 1824 Barrister At Law
Cheltenham Gloucester
COLT, Georgana Ellen Wife Married F 30 1831
St Clement
Middlesex
COLT, Florence Ellen Daughter F 6 1855
St George Bloomsbury
Middlesex
COLT, Edith G Daughter F 5 1856
St John Hampstead
Middlesex
COLT, George Brace Son M 3 1858
St Marys Islington
Middlesex
COLT, Maud Isabel Daughter F 2 1859
Islington
COLT Daughter F 0 (1M) 1861
Highgate
Middlesex
HOLES, Susannah Servant Married F 39 1822 Monthly Nurse
Brighton
Sussex
BRENYA, Leonara Servant Unmarried F 32 1829 Cook
Barnham
Norfolk
SIMMONS, Elizabeth Servant Unmarried F 26 1835 Nurse
Croydon
Surrey
WARD, Susan Servant Unmarried F 19 1842 Housemaid
Highgate
Middlesex
RG number:
RG09 Piece:
124 Folio:
155 Page:
52

Registration District:
Pancras Sub District:
6 Kentish Town Enumeration District:
28 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Michaels

Civil Parish:
St Pancras Municipal Borough:
Address:
West Hill, St Pancras County:
London, Middlesex

The original does read BREEZE

other record from that familysearch site

www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records


record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: Robert Frederic Huggins
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 1849
baptism/christening place: , ALTON, HAMPSHIRE, ENGLAND
father's name: Samuel Huggins
mother's name: Ann
indexing project (batch) number: C14662-2
system origin: England-VR
source film number: 1041297



sylvia

1871 census for married Leonora (just for reference if this family is correct) -

COPPEN, Isaac Head M 38 1833 Essex
COPPEN, Leonora Annice Wife F 40 1831 Norfolk
COPPEN, Alfred Leonard Son M 4 1867 Middlesex
COPPEN, Ellen Daughter F 2 1869 Middlesex
COPPEN, Edith Kate Daughter F 0 1871 Middlesex
WILTSHIRE, Annie Visitor F 19 1852 Hampshire
RG number:
RG10 Piece:
191 Folio:
16 Page:
25

Registration District:
Hampstead Sub District:
Hampstead Enumeration District:
9 Ecclesiastical Parish:

Civil Parish:
St John Hampstead Municipal Borough:
Address:
Money's Yard, St John Hampstead County:
London, Middlesex

Marriage details -
Marriages Sep 1863 (>99%)
**** BREEZE Leonora Annies Marylebone 1a 905
**** Coppen Isaac Marylebone 1a 905
Hosier Mary Ann Marylebone 1a 905
Tomlin William Marylebone 1a 905

I can't find Alfred's baptism on that fmailysearch site ..... but here is Leonora


record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: Leonora Breeze
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 07 May 1831
baptism/christening place: Burnham-Westgate, Norfolk, England
father's name: Annas Breeze
mother's name: Anne
indexing project (batch) number: I03254-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 156579




sylvia

?????????

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: Richard Annis Breese
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 19 Jul 1835
baptism/christening place: INDEPENDENT,BURNHAM-WESTGATE,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
birth date: 23 Jun 1835
father's name: Richard Annis Breese
mother's name: Anne Scotney
indexing project (batch) number: C07491-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 596995



but then we find the following, with the same apparent parents


residence: Cambridge, England
parents: Richard Annis Breeze, Ann

name: Leonora Breeze
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 27 Dec 1831
baptism/christening place: Wisbeach-St Peter, Wisbeach, Cambridge, England
father's name: Richard Annis Breeze
mother's name: Ann
indexing project (batch) number: C00466-3
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 1040588


residence: Wisbeach, Cambridge, England
parents: Richard Annis Breese, Ann

name: Leonard Breese
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 21 Dec 1829
baptism/christening place: St. Peter's, Wisbeach, Cambridge, England
father's name: Richard Annis Breese
mother's name: Ann
indexing project (batch) number: C02188-9
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1040587



and there's still no record of an Alfred or a Frederick!



sylvia

???????????????????

for what it's worth


spouse: Ann Scotney
marriage: 10 Aug 1828 — St. Peter, Wesbech, Cambridge, England


groom's name: Richard Annis Breese
bride's name: Ann Scotney
marriage date: 10 Aug 1828
marriage place: St. Peter, Wesbech, Cambridge, England
indexing project (batch) number: M13850-5
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1040590





and jsut to show that there is a connection, Ann Scotney was named as the mother on Richard Annis' baptism in 1835





HOWEVER


I still haven't found Alfred!