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I have found my grandfather, Fred Thornley, and his family on the 1901 census but do not seem able to locate them on the 1911. Am I going daft? Can anyone else find them?

Fred, the "adopted" son is my grandfather. Apparently his parents died in a flu epidemic when he was only 6 months old and he was brought up by his aunt and uncle. I do not have the details of his actual parents but am working on it.

This is him on the 1901 census:

Name: Fred Thornley
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1898
Relation: Adopted Son
Gender: Male
Where born: West Houghton, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Middleton
Ecclesiastical parish: Parkfield
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Middleton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 172
Household Members: Name Age
William Thornley 39
Mary Thornley 37
Frank Alfred Thornley 15
Emily Thornley 13
Eliza Thornley 10
Fred Thornley 3

Sorry, I should have added that the birthplaces of all but Fred are given as Middleton on the 1901 census, Fred ("adopted" son, in fact their nephew I am told) was born in West Houghton, Nr Bolton.

Barbara

Barbara, do you know if Thornley was Fred's birth name? It's possible that as a very small child he was registered under that family's name.

In later years he may have registered under his original name.

Do you know who he married and when? If so, was his real father's name on that marriage certificate?

He was married as Fred Thornley but, yes, I never thought of that I will send for a copy of his marriage certificate and see who he gave as his father - I am slow.

As far as I am aware (i.e. family stories) Thornley was his birth name and (I am told) the family that he grew up with were, in fact, his uncle, aunt and his cousins. If Thornley was his birth name that would mean that his father and his uncle were brothers?? I am off to check the previous census to see if I can find William Thornley (his adopted father and see what brothers he had) I am slow - sometimes you just need to think it through and see it a little more clearly. I have been doing the other side of the family for years and you would think I would have tumbled to this by now. I'm hopeless.

Many, many thanks Barbara

Just found adoptive father, William, on the 1881 census with sisters and 3 brothers: Fred, Harry and John H. Could be named after his father or uncle so father possibly Fred (or perhaps one of the other two), now off to look for death of one of them. I am told his mum and dad died when he was approx six months old.

Sometimes it takes writing it down to see it more clearly

Thanks for all your help

Barbara

Sometimes just writing it down does help.

I have found two possible births, both in 1898, both in Bolton but one is earlier in the year than the other. If I can try and pinpoint which is my grandfather's, and then check whether the parents die, I just may be able to solve it.

I have found William (his adoptive father) in the earlier census (1881), with three brothers and a sister: Fred 16, Martha 15, Harry 13 and John H who is 11. I thought it would perhaps be Fred who is his father but a Harry Thornley dies in Bolton at the age of 30 in 1898 so that could be his father. If I know his birthday, and can send for his birth certificate, I will hopefully have the names of his parents. Now, just need to see if there is anyone who remembers when his birthday was.

Barbara - do you know where and when Fred died?

If he died after 1969 his birth date should be shown on the death record.

Also, in the 1871 it looks like there were 5 brothers:

THORNLEY, James Head M 33 1838 Lancashire - Master Clogger
THORNLEY, Eliza Wife F 32 1839 Lancashire
THORNLEY, George Son M 11 1860 Lancashire
THORNLEY, William Son M 9 1862 Lancashire
THORNLEY, Fred Son M 6 1865 Lancashire
THORNLEY, Martha A Daughter F 5 1866 Lancashire
THORNLEY, Harry Son M 3 1868 Lancashire
THORNLEY, John H Son M 1 1870 Lancashire

Registration District: Oldham Sub District: Middleton Enumeration District: 9 Ecclesiastical Parish:

Civil Parish: Middleton Municipal Borough:

Address: Cheapside Butcher's Shop Clogger's Shop, Middleton County: Lancashire

All born in Middleton

1911??


1911 census transcription details for: 135 Wood Street Middleton
RG14PN24563 RG78PN1407 RD469 SD5 ED8 SN267


Reg. District: Oldham Sub District: Middleton
Parish: Middleton Enum. District: 8
Address: 135 Wood Street Middleton
County: Lancashire

THOMLEY, William Head Married M 49 1862 Silk Loom Overlooker Lancs Middleton
THOMLEY, Mary Wife Married
26 years F 47 1864 Lancs Middleton
THOMLEY, Emily Daughter Single F 23 1888 Confectioner Lancs Middleton
THOMLEY, Eliza Daughter Single F 21 1890 Confectioner Lancs Middleton
THOMLEY, Fred Nephew M 13 1898 Telegraph Messenger Lancs Westhaughton


Maureen

Possible marriage of John?

Marriage: 7 Sep 1889 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
John Thornley - 24 Minder Bachelor of Dixon Green
Isabella Fairclough - (X), 27 Spinster of Dixon Green
Groom's Father: James Thornley, Clogger
Bride's Father: Thomas Fairclough, Spinner
Witness: Robert Fairclough; Ann Jane Thornley, (X)
Married by Banns by: L Beresford Knox
Register: Marriages 1880 - 1900, Page 101, Entry 202
Source: Register at Manchester Central Library

Well spotted Maureen!

I've been trying to trace all of the brothers through to 1901/11 to see who goes missing. Having trouble locating Fred b1865 and John b1870 for definite.

Wonder if Fred 1865 was the father - just because of the name?

Got to pop out, will try further later on.

Sorry I haven't responded earlier. At work all day and then Wednesday night is Guide night (Unit Helper) so only just had chance to log on.

Hi Marie Celeste - He died in Middleton and I am pretty sure it was when I was in my first year at high school so that would be c.1965 (showing my age now!!).

Yes, I found that 1871 census entry showing the extra brother just before bed very late last night. Should have posted it, I do apologise but it was 1.30am and could hardly keep my eyes open.

I too had an inkling that it could be the brother Fred who was his father (just because of the name) but also note that there is a death of a Harry Thornley in Bolton in 1898 aged 30 so that may fit (and one of the brothers is Harry so, I suppose, he could have been named after an uncle??)

Maureen - many thanks for tracking down the 1911 census entry, no wonder I couldn't find him - thought it was strange. Yes, that will be him, he worked for the Post Office all his life in various posts such as postman, in the sorting room, etc, etc.

You are all brilliant - Many thanks

This must be the 1898 death for Harry:

Burial: 9 Sep 1898 St Paul, Peel, Lancashire, England
Harry Thornley - son of James Thornley
Age: 30 years
Abode: Westhoughton [Died in the Farnworth Hospital]
Buried by: H. E. Alderson, Vicar
Register: Burials 1896 - 1906, Page 25, Entry 198
Source: Wigan History Shop MF1A 30/4

The father's name is right. Don't know much about Lancs records - would it not mention a wife's name if married?

I can't find a marriage for Harry.

The John marrying in Farnworth would certainly look to be a promising possibility as his father is a James Thornley and a clogger but the age doesn't seem to tie up too well as (and correct me if I am wrong as Maths is never my strong point), if the John in the 1871 census entry would seem to be born in 1870 making him approx 29 in 1889, but this John is said to be only 24.

I am off the look at the later census for this John.

Thanks once again - you're all so helpful

Harry is definitely looking promising. He dies in 1898 and Fred's birth year is given as 1898 and I remember being told that his parents had both died when he was 6 months old. Also Fred's birthplace is given as West Houghton so it could certainly tie in.

I also googled flu epidemics (sad that I am) and there was certainly one in 1898/99 but not as serious as the great one of 1918/20.

Just been working on the possibility of Harry (as age ties in, etc).

Have found Harry in the 1891 census:
Harry 23, with his father James 53 and mother Eliza 51, at Walken Rd, Swinton, and both Harry and his father have occupation of "Clog and shoemaker". All three give birthplace as Middleton.
There is also a daughter, Jennie 8, born in Swinton.

Turning to his possible marriage:

Marriages Jun 1892 (>99%)
________________________________________
Alltree Annie Barton I.
Hunt Emily Barton I.
Myles Thomas Barton I
Thornley Harry Barton I.

Barton in Irwell is but a mile or two from Swinton.

My Fred's parents could therefore very possibly be Harry Thornley and either Annie (Alltree) or Emily (Hunt). Off to do a little more searching but I feel I may be getting near.

Ooops sorry - those marriages were lined up and looked fine on the screen before I pressed the send button but arrived in a bit of a muddle (should have done a preview and checked first)

They are from freebmd and "Barton I" is Barton on Irwell in each case.

Emily Thornley death 1989, Bolton (source: freebmd)

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Deaths Sep 1898 (>99%)
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Thornley Emily 31 Bolton 8c 242

I think I may now have Fred Thornley's birth parents. Harry and Emily (nee HUNT) and I also have a generation or so further back for the Thornley's in the process.

Thank you so much everyone.

Really must look at what I type before I press the submit button. That should obviously read "Emily Thornley death 1898"

If this is Fred's parents, then they married in 1892 and did not die until 1898 that is a six year gap before the birth of Fred - seems a long time in those days???

Wonder if Fred was an only child or if he had siblings who, perhaps, also died.

I have the possibilty of two births for my grandfather, Fred Thornley, both Bolton and both in 1898 - no Fred Thornley's for 1897 so the chances are that one of these is the one.


Births Jun 1898 (>99%)
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Thornley Fred Bolton 8c 414

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Births Sep 1898 (>99%)
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THORNLEY Fred Bolton 8c 526

If I request a birth certificate can I ask that they check the parents' names and see if they are Harry Thornley and Emily (nee Hunt) rather than having to send for them both?