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Hi Ann

We could well be.

Fred Thornley (the subject of my research above) was my maternal grandfather (my mother's father).

Barbara

PS - Sorry I haven't been on for the last couple of weeks. Busy at work (I teach in Further Education) but now off until late August.

Hello Ann - your best bet is probably to click on Barbara's name to send her a message.

Hi
This is a long shot and I know this posting is over 12 months old but I am researching Thornley / Hunt from Westhoughton and was wondering if we might have a connection

Ann

Think I may have possibly found Elsie's death, aged 25, unmarried and in Barton on Irwell. The dates look promising as she was born in 1893 and possibly dies, aged 25, in 1918 and her grandparents, James and Eliza lived on Walkden Rd, Swinton, for a time.

Barton on irwell was also the registration area of her parent's (Harry Thornley and Emily Hunt)'s marriage.

I have just tried freebmd for any possible marriages for Elsie Thornley. Did from 1905 onwards until 1930s but none of the surnames of the spouses ring any bells - was hoping that it could be that I might recall relatives talking of them when I was younger.

As I say, will look further this evening

Wonderful. Thank you so much Dea.

I thought it was unusual (for those times) that they married in 1892 and Fred was not born until 1898, yet I have never heard of Elsie (whereas the "sisters" he grew up with (his cousins Eliza,etc) I do remember from when I was a child.

Wonder what became of her - the mystery goes on. Will have to look into this more this evening when I get back from work.

Thanks once again

Barbara

There was at least one other child:

Baptisms: 18 Oct 1893 St John the Baptist, Little Hulton, Lancashire, England
Elsie Thornley - Child of Harry Thornley & Emily
Abode: Manchester Rd. E.
Occupation: Shoemaker
Baptised by: M. S. Munroe
Register: Baptisms 1861 - 1903, Page 139, Entry 1112
Source: Original Register Manchester Central Library

From Lancs OPC site

Dea x

EDIT - Just to add that Elsie is with her grandparents James + Eliza in 1901.
In 1911 she is with her Aunt + Uncle (Edwin Kearsley + Martha Ann nee Thornley) and family.

Dea x

Thank you so much for your help.

Somehow it looks so sad when you see them put together like this.
They die within 9 days of each other and even follow on as consecutively numbered entries in the burial register.

Thank you so much for your help.

to put the deaths of Emily & harry together

Burial: 9 Sep 1898 St Paul, Peel, Lancashire, England
Harry Thornley - son of James Thornley
Age: 30 years
Abode: Westhoughton [Died in the Farnworth Hospital]
Buried by: H. E. Alderson, Vicar
Register: Burials 1896 - 1906, Page 25, Entry 198
Source: Wigan History Shop MF1A 30/4

Burial: 19 Sep 1898 St Paul, Peel, Lancashire, England
Emily Thornley - widow of Harry Thornley
Age: 31 years
Abode: Little Hulton
Buried by: H. E. Alderson, Vicar
Register: Burials 1896 - 1906, Page 25, Entry 199
Source: Wigan History Shop MF1A 30/4

I have the possibilty of two births for my grandfather, Fred Thornley, both Bolton and both in 1898 - no Fred Thornley's for 1897 so the chances are that one of these is the one.


Births Jun 1898 (>99%)
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Thornley Fred Bolton 8c 414

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Births Sep 1898 (>99%)
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THORNLEY Fred Bolton 8c 526

If I request a birth certificate can I ask that they check the parents' names and see if they are Harry Thornley and Emily (nee Hunt) rather than having to send for them both?

Really must look at what I type before I press the submit button. That should obviously read "Emily Thornley death 1898"

If this is Fred's parents, then they married in 1892 and did not die until 1898 that is a six year gap before the birth of Fred - seems a long time in those days???

Wonder if Fred was an only child or if he had siblings who, perhaps, also died.

Emily Thornley death 1989, Bolton (source: freebmd)

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Deaths Sep 1898 (>99%)
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Thornley Emily 31 Bolton 8c 242

I think I may now have Fred Thornley's birth parents. Harry and Emily (nee HUNT) and I also have a generation or so further back for the Thornley's in the process.

Thank you so much everyone.

Ooops sorry - those marriages were lined up and looked fine on the screen before I pressed the send button but arrived in a bit of a muddle (should have done a preview and checked first)

They are from freebmd and "Barton I" is Barton on Irwell in each case.

Just been working on the possibility of Harry (as age ties in, etc).

Have found Harry in the 1891 census:
Harry 23, with his father James 53 and mother Eliza 51, at Walken Rd, Swinton, and both Harry and his father have occupation of "Clog and shoemaker". All three give birthplace as Middleton.
There is also a daughter, Jennie 8, born in Swinton.

Turning to his possible marriage:

Marriages Jun 1892 (>99%)
________________________________________
Alltree Annie Barton I.
Hunt Emily Barton I.
Myles Thomas Barton I
Thornley Harry Barton I.

Barton in Irwell is but a mile or two from Swinton.

My Fred's parents could therefore very possibly be Harry Thornley and either Annie (Alltree) or Emily (Hunt). Off to do a little more searching but I feel I may be getting near.

Harry is definitely looking promising. He dies in 1898 and Fred's birth year is given as 1898 and I remember being told that his parents had both died when he was 6 months old. Also Fred's birthplace is given as West Houghton so it could certainly tie in.

I also googled flu epidemics (sad that I am) and there was certainly one in 1898/99 but not as serious as the great one of 1918/20.

The John marrying in Farnworth would certainly look to be a promising possibility as his father is a James Thornley and a clogger but the age doesn't seem to tie up too well as (and correct me if I am wrong as Maths is never my strong point), if the John in the 1871 census entry would seem to be born in 1870 making him approx 29 in 1889, but this John is said to be only 24.

I am off the look at the later census for this John.

Thanks once again - you're all so helpful

This must be the 1898 death for Harry:

Burial: 9 Sep 1898 St Paul, Peel, Lancashire, England
Harry Thornley - son of James Thornley
Age: 30 years
Abode: Westhoughton [Died in the Farnworth Hospital]
Buried by: H. E. Alderson, Vicar
Register: Burials 1896 - 1906, Page 25, Entry 198
Source: Wigan History Shop MF1A 30/4

The father's name is right. Don't know much about Lancs records - would it not mention a wife's name if married?

I can't find a marriage for Harry.

Sorry I haven't responded earlier. At work all day and then Wednesday night is Guide night (Unit Helper) so only just had chance to log on.

Hi Marie Celeste - He died in Middleton and I am pretty sure it was when I was in my first year at high school so that would be c.1965 (showing my age now!!).

Yes, I found that 1871 census entry showing the extra brother just before bed very late last night. Should have posted it, I do apologise but it was 1.30am and could hardly keep my eyes open.

I too had an inkling that it could be the brother Fred who was his father (just because of the name) but also note that there is a death of a Harry Thornley in Bolton in 1898 aged 30 so that may fit (and one of the brothers is Harry so, I suppose, he could have been named after an uncle??)

Maureen - many thanks for tracking down the 1911 census entry, no wonder I couldn't find him - thought it was strange. Yes, that will be him, he worked for the Post Office all his life in various posts such as postman, in the sorting room, etc, etc.

You are all brilliant - Many thanks

Well spotted Maureen!

I've been trying to trace all of the brothers through to 1901/11 to see who goes missing. Having trouble locating Fred b1865 and John b1870 for definite.

Wonder if Fred 1865 was the father - just because of the name?

Got to pop out, will try further later on.

Possible marriage of John?

Marriage: 7 Sep 1889 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
John Thornley - 24 Minder Bachelor of Dixon Green
Isabella Fairclough - (X), 27 Spinster of Dixon Green
Groom's Father: James Thornley, Clogger
Bride's Father: Thomas Fairclough, Spinner
Witness: Robert Fairclough; Ann Jane Thornley, (X)
Married by Banns by: L Beresford Knox
Register: Marriages 1880 - 1900, Page 101, Entry 202
Source: Register at Manchester Central Library