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David....Here is the entry for Edward...Reg.Dec1902 Liverpool.

Irving Edward Peter S Liverpool 8b 100

David


Did you take in that marriage record that I posted early today


Winifred Bates marrying Edward Peter Irving


His age is shown as 28, and hers as 21 ......................... so 1903 is far far too late.




Ancestry is carrying Liverpool Baptisms, Marriages and Burials.


You can look at the ACTUAL parish register, and see your ancestors' actual handwriting.



You might wish to consider taking out a subscription to ancestry. Well worth!!




sylvia

David

The 1891 Census says that Bessie Bates (nee Hamitlon) was born at Seaa off Samaria, British Subject


I'll try to do a bit more digging in a little while




sylvia

Hi sorry for the mix up with the extra threads, my apologies. a small bit of progress. I can rule out the Edward Irving in the 1891 census living at jolittle street as he was born edward winter irving and shows up in the 1911 census as being married with 4 children. so maybe 2 possibles.
(1) that edward irvine and edward peter irving is the same person.
1891 census age 4 (1887) living at 14 gerard Street. mothers name agnes age 22. 1901 census shows an Edward Irvine . and in 1911 census living at 5 -8 Christian Street with a james cain and lists his job as a coal seller. on the ww1 pension record above it shows the same info and the kiffin st could be a mispelling notice the 5 in front of kiffin. maybe he changed his name on purpose because it seems he was born out of wedlock. and he may have just made up a fathers name and employment as being a catholic it was frowned upon to be born out of wedlock.
(2) 1891 census edward irving age 9 living at 41 prince edwin lane. with his father age 42 seaman. in 1901 census 10 cromwell terrace garden lane living with his father who is now a dock labourer and his sister. this census shows he has a middle name and there is a birth entry 8B 388 for him as edward richard irving. i cannot find a marriage or death record for him though. there is a 5 year difference in age to that on the marriage cert for edward peter irving and why would you change your middle name,

any thoughts on this and thankyou.

Thankyou for the info on Bessie and yes im going to join ancestory in a couple of weeks 2 many bills this last month lol

David - where have your other threads gone with the useful info on?

Hit marie, i misunderstood the thread process and it was causing confusion, so the other 2 threads were deleted but most of the info is on this one but i made a copy of info on the other thread and will update tommorow

A big thankyou to all who helped on this Thread.
With all the info supplied and with the help of the Mersyside geneology Society, it appears that Edward Irvine and Edward Peter Irving are / is the same person.
1891 census shows Agnes Irvine age 22 born carlise 1869 and Edward Irvine age 4 born Liverpool.
as we know there is no birth registered in or around Liverpool for Edward in 1887.
Agnes was actualy born Agnes Irving in 1869 in Carlise to a John and Mary Irving.
The variation of the name Irving to Irvine is a common occurence in the census, especialy around the Liverpool area due to a large amount of illiteracy around the 18 /1900,s.
Agnes had a sister Susannah Irving who married a John Deegan.
With the information given on the WW1 pensions stating he was a coal hewer and giving James Cain as next of kin Nephew, it turns out that James cain was his uncle.

James Cain married Mary Deegan in 1900, the sister of John Deegan making Edward HIS nephew and not the other way round.

after a lot of digging, we may have located Edwards birth.
.
There is a birth entry in 1887 in Staines Middlesex for Irving Male unamed
Apr/May/Jun Volume 3A page No 4.
It may be a coincidence, but Agnes,s mother was born in Staines and that due to the fact of her unmarried condition she may have been whisked off to Staines by her mother.
As the Staines Register closed in 1947 i have e-mailed Slough registrar to see if they can give further help with this cert.
It may or may not be the right cert and it may or may not give the fathers name.
As for Edward Peter Irving giving his fathers name as Edward Irving (seaman) there could be 2 explanations.
(A) she just made it up due to the lack of a father to Edward and a sailor would be the perfect excuse for his abcence.
(B) As there is an Edward Irving Sailor in the 1891 census, and that Agnes and this Edward lived in very close proximity to one another, they could have been having an affair and she fell pregnant.
this could possibly explain why she was whisked of to Staines to have the child as being catholic, abortions were frowned upon.
this of course is all summise.

once again thankyou to all who contributed to this thread, as without all your digging in the first place, wouldnt have been able to reach the conclusion.

Thank you for posting this, David


I'm glad we could help you sort it all out




sylvia

Back to the drawing board. after checking through all the info given by the Merseyside genology society. the Mary Deegan that James Cain married is born to late to be connected to the John Deggan that Agnes,s sister, Susannah married. So this is not the connection. :-(