Find Ancestors

Hi folks, deleted previous thread cos now find I had errors in my info, and correcting them exceeded the word count.

On behalf of a friend.

Abraham Oughton and his sister Sarah emigrated from Liverpool to Philadelphia in 1885. Abraham married Rosanna Harris in Philadelphia in 1887. My friend has the marriage record. No fathers named.

Here is the marriage info:

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Marriage Index, 1885-1951
about Rosanna Harris Name: Rosanna Harris
Gender: Female
Spouse Surname: Oughton (Abraham)
Spouse Gender: Male
Marriage Place: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
Marriage Year: 1887
Marriage License Number: 9457
Digital GSU Number: 4140435

The family appears in Leeds (UK) in 1891:

OUGHTON, Abraham Head Married M 25 1866 General Labourer
Wicklow Ireland VIEW
OUGHTON, Rose A Wife Married F 30 1861
Worcester VIEW
OUGHTON, Samuel Brother Single M 22 1869 General Labourer
Wicklow Ireland VIEW

Piece:
3679 Folio:
110 Page:
46 Registration District:
Bramley

Civil Parish:
Wortley Municipal Borough:
Leeds Address:
17, Danube View, Wortley, Leeds County:
Yorkshire (West Riding)

Here is the family in 1901:

OUGHTON, Abraham Head Married M 39 1862 Gas Stoker
Ireland Wicklow
OUGHTON, Rosanna Wife Married F 41 1860 Worcestershire
OUGHTON, Fred Son M 9 1892 Leeds Yorkshire
OUGHTON, Olive Daughter F 7 1894 LeedsYorkshire
OUGHTON, Thomas Son M 3 1898 Leeds Yorkshire
OUGHTON, James Son M 1 1900 Leeds Yorkshire

Piece:
4209 Folio:
33 Page:
31 Registration District:
Bramley

Civil Parish:
Wortley Municipal Borough:
Address:
15, Lodge Avenue, Wortley County:
Yorkshire (West riding)

Abraham dies and is buried in Leeds in 1906 along with his daughter Olive who died in 1901. My friend knows all this to be true. Here is Rosannah in 1911:

OUGHTON, Rosanah Head Widow F 51 1860 Office Cleaner Stoke Works Worcestershire VIEW
OUGHTON, Thomas Son M 12 1899 School Leeds Yorkshire VIEW
OUGHTON, James Harris Son M 11 1900 School Leeds Yorkshire VIEW

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
18092 Reference:
RG14PN18092 RG78PN1097 RD384 SD3 ED32 SN232

Registration District:
Birmingham Sub District:
St George Enumeration District:
32 Parish:
Birmingham

Address:
2 House Bk No 152 Newtown Row Birmingham County:
Warwickshire

Here is Rosannah's death:

Name: OUGHTON, Rosannah
Registration District: Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Year of Registration: 1916
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at death: 57
Volume No: 6D
Page No: 220

The informant was her sister Ellen, living at 65 St John's Terrace, London. My friend has the will of Roseanna naming her sister Ellen as executor. In 1911, here is Ellen:

HARRIS, Ellen Head Widow F 59 1852 Worcestershire Stoke Bucks
HARRIS, Maud Daughter Single F 28 1883 Millinery London Highbury HARRIS, Kathleen Daughter Single F 19 1892 Music Teacher London Hampstead
FORBES, Edgar Boarder Single M 7 1904

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
581 Reference:
RG14PN581 RG78PN21 RD7 SD4 ED4 SN182

Registration District:
St Marylebone Sub District:
St John Enumeration District:
4 Parish:
St Marylebone

Address:
65 St Johns Wood Terrace N W County:
London

Both daughters have mmn Peat, father James Harris, butler at birth. By their marriages (both on same day) he is a deceased clerk.

And in 1901:

HARRIS, Ellen Head Widow F 43 1858 Servant (Domestic) Stoke
Worcestershire
HARRIS, Maud Daughter F 14 1887 Islington London
HARRIS, Kathleen Daughter F 9 1892 Hampstead London

Piece:
154 Folio:
82 Page:
83 Registration District:
St Pancras

Civil Parish:
St Pancras Municipal Borough:
Address:
10, Rochford Street, St Pancras County:
London

And in 1891:

HARRIS, Ellen Wife Married F 32 1859 Stoke Works Worcestershire
HARRIS, Maud Daughter F 4 1887 Highbury London

Piece:
109 Folio:
55 Page:
45 Registration District:
Hampstead

Civil Parish:
Hampstead Municipal Borough:
Address:
12, Fleet Road, Hampstead County:
London

So who are Rosanna and Ellen Harris? I cannot find a marriage of an Ellen Peat to a James Harris. Either Ellen was not a sister to Rosannah, but a sister-in-law, and James Harris was the brother of Rosannah. Or Ellen was a half-sister and the children were brought up under a different name.

The only likely family with the two girls is this one:

HARRIS, John Head Married M 33 1828 Whitesmith
Henley in Arden Worcestershire
HARRIS, Matilda Wife Married F 31 1830
Henley in Arden Worcestershire
HARRIS, Emily Daughter F 12 1849 Scholar
Ashton Under Hill Worcestershire
HARRIS, Frances Daughter F 9 1852 Scholar
Henley in Arden Worcestershire
HARRIS, Arthur Son M 6 1855 Scholar
Bransgrove Worcestershire
HARRIS, Ellen Daughter F 4 1857 Scholar
Bromsgrove Worcestershire
HARRIS, Rosa Daughter F 2 1859
Wootton Wawen Worcestershire

Piece:
2100 Folio:
74 Page:
49 Registration District:
Evesham

Civil Parish:
Bengeworth Municipal Borough:
Evesham Address:
Avon Terrace, Bengeworth, Evesham County:
Worcestershire

But this Rosa Harris married Jesse Tibbles in 1881:

Marriages Mar 1881 (>99%)
HARRIS Rosa Ann Cheltenham 6a 567
TIBBLES Jesse Cheltenham 6a 567

This Rosa Ann has a father John Harris, a bellhanger. And he is a bellhanger in 1871:

HARRIS, John Head M 43 1828 Warwickshire (Bell Ringer)
HARRIS, Matilda Wife F 44 1827 Warwickshire VIEW
HARRIS, Arthur J Son M 15 1856 Worcestershire VIEW
HARRIS, Rosa A Daughter F 12 1859 Warwickshire VIEW
HARRIS, John E Son M 9 1862 Worcestershire VIEW
HARRIS, Ann M Daughter F 5 1866 Worcestershire VIEW

Piece:
3061 Folio:
71 Page:
15 Registration District:
Evesham

Civil Parish:
Offenham Municipal Borough:
Address:
Northend Of Street, Offenham County:
Worcestershire

HELP!!!!

Margaret

Baptism of Kathleen shows parents James and Ellen:

Name: Kathleen Mary Harris
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1891
Baptism Date: 30 Oct 1891
Father's Name: James Harris
Mother's Name: Ellen Harris
Parish or Poor Law Union: Hampstead St Saviour
Borough: Camden

father a butler, address 12 Fleet Rd born Sept 26 1891

I wasgoing to say perhaps you need the birth cert of one ofAbraham/Roseanna's children to confirm her maiden name but......

Births Sep 1891
Oughton Fred Bramley 9b 382

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1894
Oughton Olive Bramley 9b 384

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1900
OUGHTON James Harris Bramley 9b 382


Son gets 'Harris' as a middle name.

A tree on Ancestry has this couple as her parents.

Marriages Dec 1844
--------------------------------------------------------
HARRIS John Birmingham 16 502
Maries Matilda Birmingham 16 502

1871 England Census
about Rosa A Harris
Name: Rosa A Harris
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Harris
Mother's Name: Matilda Harris
Gender: Female
Where born: Wooton Waren, Warwickshire, England
Civil parish: Offenham
Town: Offenham
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Evesham
Sub-registration district: Broadway
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 78
Piece: 3061
Folio: 71
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
John Harris 43
Matilda Harris 44
Arthur J Harris 15
Rosa A Harris 12
John E Harris 9
Ann M Harris 5

1881 England Census
about Matilda Harris
Name: Matilda Harris
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Arthur J. Harris
Gender: Female
Where born: Henley In Arden, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Wootton Wawen
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address: High Street
Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: Stratford Upon Avon
Sub-registration district: Wootton Wawen
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3104
Folio: 81
Page Number: 21
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur J. Harris 53
Matilda Harris 54
Charles E. Harris 8
Elizabeth Harris

1891 England Census
about Matilda Harris
Name: Matilda Harris
Age: 64
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Harris
Gender: Female
Where born: Henley in Arden, Warwickshire, England <<Address High St

Civil parish: Wootton Wawen
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Baptist
Town: Henley in Arden
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Stratford On Avon
Sub-registration district: Wootton Wawen
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2479
Folio: 66
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
John Harris 63
Matilda Harris 64
Elizabeth Harris 92
Girtie Harris 4
Edie Harris 2 <<Female


01 England Census
about Matilda Harris
Name: Matilda Harris
Age: 77
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Harris
Gender: Female
Where born: Henley in Arden, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Wootton Wawen
Ecclesiastical parish: Henley in Arden St John
Town: Henley in Arden
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address:<<<High St

Registration district: Stratford on Avon
Sub-registration district: Wootton Wawen
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 107
Piece: 2940
Folio: 67
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
John Harris 73
Matilda Harris 77
Edith Harris 12 <<<Grandaughter




Occupations for John/Arthur John are the same on the censuses so I think its the same family

Is there an address for Rose on her marriage certificate?

So I would guess this is Rose* birth


Births Jun 1859
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HARRIS Rosanna Droitwich 6c 363

1861 England Census
about Matilda Harris
Name: Matilda Harris
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Harris
Gender: Female
Where born: Henley in Arden, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Bengeworth
Town: Evesham
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Evesham
Sub-registration district: Evesham
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 249
Piece: 2100
Folio: 74
Page Number: 49
Household Members: Name Age
John Harris 33
Matilda Harris 30
Linley Harris 12 (Emily)
Frances Harris 9
Arthur Harris 6
Ellen Harris 4 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Rosa 2


Theres a couple of possibles for Ellen as a servant aged 15 on the 1871 censuses

Why would Ellen still be called Harris if she married, unless she married a Harris, I cant find a marriage that matches?

Ellen is never listed with a 'husband' on the censuses that you post so I would think that Ellen never married?

I dont think Ellen ever married. This looks like her with her brother Edward (John Edward Harris b 1862 Bromsgrove)

1881 England Census
about Ellen Harris
Name: Ellen Harris
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street Address: Glenfall St 1 Godstone Cottage
Occupation: Dressmaker

Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2570
Folio: 14
Page Number: 21
Household Members: Name Age
Chas F. Jelf 23
Lily Mary Jelf 22
Fredk Chas Jelf
Edwd Harris 20 <<
Ellen Harris 24 <<

1891 England Census
about Ollen Harriet
Name: Ollen Harriet
[Ellen Harris]
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Cheltenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Employment status: Dressmaker

Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2044
Folio: 52
Page Number: 5
Household Members: Name Age
Ollen Harriet 33
Elizabeth Brookes 59

1901 England Census
about Ellen Harris
Name: Ellen Harris
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Bromsgrove

Civil parish: Cheltenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Employment status: Dressmaker
Registration district: Cheltenham
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 49
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 343
Piece: 2465
Folio: 158
Page Number: 58
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Harris 45
Gertrude Chess 20


Thinking on, the will does put Ellen in London? Maybe that is her that you have on the censuses with her daughters but it looks like she never married?

Hmmm this migght be the husband and explain why his doesnt show on the census with Ellen as he is a live in Butler

1881 England Census
about James Harris
Name: James Harris
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Roby, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Marylebone
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 127 Harley Street
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Butler

Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Cavendish Square
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 139
Folio: 84
Page Number: 26
Household Members: Name Age
Charles A. Hay 47
Mary S. B. Hay 37
Mary A. Hay 8
Thos. C. Hay 6
Edith M. Hay 4
Beatrice Caroline Hay 1
James Harris 37 <<<Married
Martha Thorne 28
Jane Matthews 30
Jane Jones 38
Thomas Gatenley 22
Susan Tolman 22
Margaret Roff 20
Alice Brown 18

Ginny's live in butler James Harris in 1881 ties in with my baptism of Ellen's daughter Kathleen in 1891 posted earlier, where father James is a butler.

James is still a live in butler for the Hay family in 1891:

HAY, Charles A Head Married M 57 1834 Living On Own Mean Kensington
Middlesex
HAY, Mary B Wife Married F 47 1844 Paddington Middlesex
HAY, Mary A Daughter Single F 18 1873 St Marylebone Middlesex
HAY, Edith M Daughter Single F 14 1877 St Marylebone London
HAY, Beatrice C Daughter Single F 11 1880 St Marylebone London
HAY, Edward G Son Single M 8 1883 St Marylebone London
>>>>HARRIS, James Servant Married M 47 1844 Butler Domestic Servant Groby Lancashire
WEBSTER, Arthur Servant Single M 19 1872 Footman Domestic Servant
Heyford Oxfordshire
MITCHELL, Janet Servant Single F 32 1859 Cook Domestic Servant
Scotland
ARMSBY, Mary Servant Single F 25 1866 Childrens Maid Domestic Servant
Kimbolton Huntingdonshire
OWENS, Elizabeth Servant Single F 35 1856 Upper Housemaid Domestic Servant Holyhead Anglesey
LOCK, Ellen Servant Single F 17 1874 Under Housemaid Domestic Servant Paddington London
BASS, Lillian Servant Single F 17 1874 Kitchenmaid Domestic Servant
Old Ford London

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
93 Folio:
9 Page:
11 Registration District:
Marylebone

Civil Parish:
St Marylebone Municipal Borough:

Address:
127, Harley Street, St Marylebone County:
London

James Harris in census 1851:


HARRIS, Eli Head Married M 39 1812 Coachman Towcester Northamptonshire
HARRIS, Mary Wife Married F 40 1811 Employed In Domestic Affairs Switzerland
HARRIS, Eli Son M 11 1840 Scholar Towcester Northamptonshire
HARRIS, William Son M 9 1842 Scholar Liverpool Lancashire
HARRIS, Francis Son M 8 1843 Scholar Roby Lancashire
>>>>>HARRIS, James Son M 7 1844 Scholar Roby Lancashire
HARRIS, Mary Daughter F 1 1850 Hutton Lancashire
HARRIS, Jane Daughter F 0 (3 MOS) 1851 Infant Hutton Lancashire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
2264 Folio:
108 Page:
12 Registration District:
Preston

Civil Parish:
Hutton Municipal Borough:

Address:
Tusons Row, Hutton County:
Lancashire

Oh heck, such a lot to absorb. I often forget to thank people, but thanks to you all. I think I forgot to say that on the birth of Kathleen Mary Harris, her parents are James Harris and Ellen Peat. I can see that the James Harris as a live-in servant might be Ellen's husband, but how is Ellen (Peat) a sister of Rose Harris? No marriage found of Ellen Peat and James Harris. I don't think she ever married. But no proof and that is what is needed isn't it?

No, there are no fathers given on the marriage of Ellen Harris to Abraham Oughton in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Basically that is our starting point, we can't get back any further.

I will copy all this lot to my friend.

The tree on Ancestry that has John and Matilda Harris is probably hers.

I am trying to disprove that Ellen was the sister of John Edward Harris, daughter of John and Matilda, cos their Rosa married Jesse Tibbles, and I want a Rose who married Abraham Oughton.

I appreciate that all these districts of Worcestershire/Warwickshire are close together, and I don't know the geography, but both "our" Ellen and Rosa mention Stoke Works, which seems not to exist as a district at all.

If your friend has Matilda and John as the parents.....where has she got the info from?

It's all very convoluted, maybe your friend could let you know what she/he has as fact, ie certificates and then we can go from there

Has your friend bought any certificates?

My friend has bought many certificates (lots of them the wrong ones) and is determined to carry on doing so to prove the right family. She only has homed in on John and Matilda as the parents cos there are no others that fit. John and Matilda have daughters Ellen and Roseann. We know that Roseann has a sister Ellen. That is about it.

She has a birth cert for Rosanne Harris (sorry, so many different spellings,, parents John Harris and Matilda Maries- but is it HER Rosanne? This is the issue. She has no birth cert for Ellen cos there doesnt seem to be one.

She has all relevant certs for the children of Abraham OUghton and Roseanna Harris. Not a problem there.

The problem arises cos Abraham Oughton and Rosanna Harris married in Philadelphia with no fathers names. So there is no trail to Rosanna's family.

She has the birth cert of Kathleen Mary Harris, father James Harris, mother Ellen Peat. Whatever this woman's real name she is the "sister" of Rosanne who registers her death and administers her estate.

If anyone can suggest other certs that my friend can usefully apply for,please suggest, and I am sure that she will.

Meg

Meg

I just wonder if there are any immigration records for Rose Ann which may give next of kin. Abraham and Sarah's on Ancestry but nothing for Rose Ann. There is one for a Rosey Harris travrelling into Philadelphia in 1885 but she is then aged 33 years. FMP might have something on her.

Will carry on looking. That Peat is a puzzle.

Vera

Apols for not getting back sooner, had some (living) family problems.

We cannot find any emigration or immigration records for Rose/Anne, including on FMP.

The Ollen Harriet etc in Cheltenham in 1891 and 1901 doesn't seem to be our Ellen, cos she is in London then. But odd that in 1881 she is with brother Edward (Charles Edward?).

My friend has now passed me the marriage of Kathleen Mary in 1919, age 27, showing father James Harris, Butler (EDIT he's a Clerk), dec'd, one of the witnesses is Ellen Harris. The marriage is in Hampstead, bride and groom living at 65 St John's Wood (Terrace? - where Ellen was living when she notified the death of sister Roseanna Oughton). Of course there are several deaths of a James Harris between 1901 and 1911, but not in Hampstead or Marylebone. Even if we found the right one, it would likely be registered by Ellen or one of the daughters, and will not provide any connection between her and Roseanna.

There is no birth for Maud Harris, 1887, nor Maud Peat.

We don't know who the parents of the two kiddies Gertie and Edie are.

The Ann M Harris age 5 in 1871 is Annie Matilda b Evesham Sep Qtr 1864 but there is no sign of her again. No death either. Did she emigrate with big sister Roseanna? I'm not too good on overseas records - virtually none of my rellies emigrated.

But the last two paras are irrelevant if "our" Ellen and Roseanna were not the kids of James and Matilda.

There's no Ellen Peat with a sister Rosanna that either I or my friend can find.

Have we reached the stage of giving up? My friend is a pretty good sleuth and will carry on to the death.

Have you got this certificate?


Births Sep 1857
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harrison Ellen Kidderminster 6c 218

????

Islington reg district for Highbury.. Note 1911 census and 1901 have two dfferent dobs for Maud

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Maud Harris Name: Maud Harris
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1887
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 349 (click to see others on page)


Vera

Here is Maud's marriage. Living at 65 St John's Wood Terrace at time of marriage. Father deceased Clerk. Spouse Porter. Witnesses Ellen Harris and Edith ?Pryor. Still nothing linking Ellen to Rose A.

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Maud Adelaide Harris Name: Maud Adelaide Harris
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Spouse Name: Edwin Davis
Spouse Age: 34
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 07 Jun 1919
Parish: St Stephen the Martyr, Hampstead
County: London
Borough: Camden
Father Name: James Harris
Spouse Father Name: John Davis

Vera

My friend just found that Vera - on the same page as the marriage of sister Kathleen Mary - Ellen Harris and Edith Pryor witnessed both, and all were living at 65 St John's Wood/Terrave.

I've edited earlier post that said James Harris was a porter. He's a clerk.

Guessing the Maud is born c 1887, so will pass on that birth, thanks.

Back after more searching.