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Thanks Joy and Helen

I wonder if this is Jane's remarriage, divorce became final early 1910

12850/1910 Smith Thomas Fenwick Jane Newcastle

Sarah,

If you look at the trove website, Oscar's divorce is in the S.M.H. dated 17th March, 1910. Just search for Oscar Wiseman.

It states that he was a comedian & sang in music halls, maybe he went under the name of Herbert!!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?adv=y

Joy

Helen

I've been doing a bit more research and I think you are right. i think Oscar and Herbert are the same person.

I downloaded Herbert's death certificate, as you suggested, and it shows that he married Jane Fenwick in Newcastle, New South Wales when he was 20 years old (this would have been about 1898/99). It also shows that they had no children.

I then did a search of all marriage records of males called Wiseman in New South Wales between 1895 and 1910. I found a record of Oscar M Wiseman marrying Jennie Fenwick in Newcastle in 1900.

Surely Oscar must be Herbert. In order to be recorded as Herbert on official documentation, such as his enlistment papers and death certificate, would he have had to change his name officially or could you just start calling yourself something different in those days?

And I wonder what happened to Jennie/Jane??

Very mysterious, but at least I'm getting somewhere at last.

Sarah

I don't know Helen. I guess it's a possibility. In fact, looking at the death certificate I have for Henry Parker Wiseman, the age of Oscar would tie in.

The death record you found for Herbert shows that he died in 1930, aged 52, which would mean that he was born about 1878. On Henry's death certificate from 1903 it lists Oscar as being 25 years old, which would also mean that he was born about 1878.

Hmmm, interesting.

I have just got home from work and cannot believe how much information has been posted since I went to bed last night. I cannot thank you all enough.

I had almost given up hope of learning more about this branch of the family. I had looked into it some years ago and obtained Herbert's service record but had not been able to find any more. I only began to look again recently having recently because my mother was keen for me to try to find out about her grandfather.

This morning I found a couple of things that I'd obtained years ago and, interestingly, I realised that I had discounted Henry Parker Wiseman as being Herbert's father. The only record I could find online of a Rachael Wiseman was the marriage of Rachael Williams to Henry Parker Wiseman & thought this might be Herbert's parents. However, I obtained a copy of Henry's death certificate (from 1903) & whilst it listed his wife as Rachel, it listed his only living children as Maude, Oscar, Ina, Blanche, Harold and Clarence (but no Herbert). However, the evidence you have obtained Helen seems to suggest Herbert was indeed the son of Rachel Williams and Henry Parker Wiseman. I don't suppose you have found any trace of a birth record for Herbert?

I can't tell you how amazing it is to be getting somewhere and now I hope that one day I will be able to take my mother to Australia to visit her grandfather's grave.

As for Herbert's marriage, I'm not convinced that there was one, due to the fact that there was nothing in his service record and I can find no trace of it in UK BMD records. My grandfather's (Clarence Herbert Wiseman) birth certificate gives his father as Herbert Wiseman of the AIF and his mother as Emily Rose Wiseman (nee Richards). I think maybe, that Emily gave her surname as Wiseman because of the stigma of being an unmarried mother. Emily died when Clarance was young, but she led him to believe that Herbert had returned to action (which he had) and been killed. Sadly, my grandfather is no longer with us and never learnt that his father did not die in the war.

Thanks once again for all the information found so far,

Sarah

You can download, Herberts death certificate from

online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action

for about $A18.00

Cannot find Herbert returning to Victoria, maybe arrived in N.S.W.

Must have been posting together, will delete mine!!

Sorry, will have to wait & see when Sarah returns to her thread. I am sure, I will be well and truly asleep when she returns!!

Helen,

Herbert married in the U.K. see 1st post

There is a funeral notice for Henry Parker Wiseman on

http://ryersonindex.net/search.php

There is a online service - ask a librarian, they will be able to let you know the details that were published in the Sydney Morning Herald on the 7th September, 1903

??Another son to Thomas & Ann

deaths

9507/1894 Wiseman Edye M Thomas H Ann Newtown

13071/1929 Mitchell Kate G Thomas H Ann Ashfield

Have been unable to find a birth of Kate Gertrude on nsw bdm

Joy

Further to Catherine's information,

Marriage

828/1879 Mitchell Leslie R Wiseman Kate G Sydney

children born

2153/1880 Mitchell Marmion Leslie Leslie Ronald Kate Gertrude Sydney
906/1882 Mitchell Ivy Leslie R Kate G Sydney
4382/1884 Mitchell Cyril H Leslie Kate Balmain
4130/1886 Mitchell Myrtle Leslie R Kate G Balmain
13014/1890 Mitchell Olive Leslie R Kate G Glebe

Joy

Just for you info only, is this the information the OziBird found at rootsweb?

Looks like 4 registrations for Henry T, ???

Reg No/Yr Surname Given Names Fathers Name Mothers Name

V1843620 45A/1843 Wiseman Henry T Thomas Anne
V1843939 48/1843 Wiseman Henry T Thomas Anne

V18415441 45B/1841 Wiseman Henry T Thomas M Anne
V18414856 47/1841 Wiseman Henry T Thomas M Anne

V18521248 51/1852 Wiseman Marmion Thomas M Anne

There were 2 deaths of a Thomas Wiseman born about 1812

V18551413 43A/1855 Wiseman Thomas Age 44 Sydney
1923/1888 Wiseman Thomas H Age 76 Died Sydney Sydney

The above were also found at http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au

from IGI (submitted entry)

Henry Thomas Wiseman - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 1843 Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Death: 1843 Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Father: Thomas Henry Wiseman
xxxx Mother: Ann Hardum xxxx

Marmion Wiseman - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 1852 Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Death: 1852 Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Kate Gertrude Wiseman - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 1849 Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Death: Ashfield, New South Wales, Australia
Burial: 17 SEP 1929 Rookwood, New South Wales, Australia

Marriage, death & birth of a daughter

7267/1909 Gibson Johnston Wiseman Blanche M Sydney
15357/1911 Gibson Blanche M Henry P Rachael Marrickville

31111/1910 Gibson Valda R Johnston Blanche M Randwick

Joy

Sarah,

?????Possible death of Rachel

Reg No/Yr Surname Given Names Fathers Name Mothers Name District
10392/1926 Wiseman Rachel Joseph Louisa Penrith

Joy

Hi Sarah,

On Australian Marriage Certificates, there is usually a lot of information -

Where born, ages when married, occupations, also if previously married and if there are any children, as well as parents names, parents occupations, where born and if applicable how long in the Colony.

There are a number of internet transcription sites where you can purchase certificates cheaper, something like-

www.joymurrin.com.au

Below are a number of other children born to Henry & Rachel/Rachael

Reg No/Yr Surname Given Names Fathers Name Mothers Names District
4330/1872 Wiseman Archibald H Henry P Rachel Redfern
359/1881 Wiseman Ina Gertrude Heny P Rachel Sydney
253/1883 Wiseman Blanche M Henry P Rachel Sydney
1225/1886 Wiseman Harold S Henry P Rachael Sydney
1649/1878 Wiseman Oscar Eveleigh Henry Parker Rachel Sydney

Marriage of Ina
Reg No/Yr Surname Given Names Spouses Surname Spouses Names District
12410/1920 Tighe Henry Wiseman Ina G Rockdale

Deaths
Reg No/Yr Surname Given Names Fathers Name Mothers Name District
21961/1954 Tighe Ina Gertrude Henry Baker Rachael Penrith
18937/1928 Wiseman Harold S Henry P Rachel Randwick
4378/1900 Wiseman Archibald H Henry P Rachel S
Joy

Australia Birth Index, 1788-1922
Parents: Henry Parker Wiseman & Rachel

NAME: Archibald H Wiseman
BIRTH: 1872 - Redfern, New South Wales

NAME: Edye Parker Wiseman
BIRTH: 1873 - Redfern, New South Wales
NAME: Edye P Wiseman
DEATH: 1899 - Redfern, New South Wales

NAME: Maude Ina Adele Wiseman
BIRTH: 1876 - Redfern, New South Wales

NAME: Clarence P Wiseman
BIRTH: 1897 - Redfern, New South Wales