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Thanks Vera. This is indeed a very helpful and wide selection of Irish sites. I will have to give them a go!

Regards
Victor

Victor

Maybe Teresa can help.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1115557

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/genealogy_chat/thread/951721

Vera

I have now looked for the baptism of George HAMILTON with a father Frederick George HAMILTON on the Rootsireland.ie website. Sadly, no success!

Where were these people prior to George's marriage in 1860? Somewhere else abroad?

Regards
Victor

Thanks, Dee. I'll give it a go.

Regards
Victor

Hi Victor,

I maybe worth looking on Rootsireland.ie

It's free to join but pay to view, however it's quick as you can see births, deaths and marriages immediately and it's cheaper than our own GRO certificates.

Dee x

You are all correct, of course! I have a long way to go to join your league!
Regards and thanks,
Victor

Victor

I noted that marriage between George Frasi and Harriet but would think that any marriage between George Frasi's sister and a Hamilton would have been in Ireland as Frederick (1834) was born in Ireland.

Harriet Gilbert was born in London but a sister could have been born in Ireland and married a Hamilton.

Regards

Vera

Oh;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Martha Gilbert Name: Martha Gilbert
Spouse Name: Charles Frasi
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 5 May 1841
Parish: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington
Father Name: James Gilbert >> Iron Founder
Spouse Father Name: George Frasi >> Engineer
Register Type: Parish Register

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Harriet Gilbert Name: Harriet Gilbert
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1809
Spouse Name: George Frasi (Engineer)
Spouse Age: 31
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 5 Oct 1837
Parish: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington
Father Name: James Gilbert >> Gent
Spouse Father Name: George Frasi >> Engineer Deceased
Register Type: Parish Register

Witnesses; Martha Gilbert and Benjamin Pilkington (??)
Address for George; Goswell St.
Address for Harriett; Barnsbury Cottage

Hi Victor,

Or the unknown mother could have been Harriet's sister, so a Gilbert to look for too.

This is what I find about Gatwards Buildings ( can't see full image though)

"Irish cockneys are the inhabitants of Gatwards Buildings. Hotel licences in the area. Gatwards Buildings, Finsbury Square, Finsbury Pavement. "

This is from Charles Booth Online Archive.

Might be worth googling the address some more???

And thank you for your very kind complement, I had very good teachers....... all the folks on here, very wise and clever people they are.

Dee x

Just noticed that a 'George FRASI' married Harriet GILBERT in Islington in O-D 1837 (Vol 3, 116). This suggests that if young Frederick is the brother of my George HAMILTON, then George's parents were probably Frederick George HAMILTON and a lady with the maiden-name or former name of 'FRASI'. I haven't yet found the marriage of this couple in England & Wales!

Regards
Victor

With your excellent record, BatmansDaughter, I am very happy to give you the details!

a) George HAMILTON married Ann HALL, 21st August 1860, at the Register Office in the district of Saint Luke in the county of Middlesex.

George Hamilton, 24 years, Bachelor, Iron Moulder, Residence: 7 Gatwards Buildings, Saint Luke. Father: Frederick George Hamilton, Engineer deceased.

Ann HALL, 20 years, Spinster, 9 Gatwards Building, Saint Luke, Father: William HALL, Carman.


Signed Geo Hamilton & Ann Hall. Witnesses: Joseph KAINES and the mark of Sarah Chamberlain. Registrar: Thomas WRIGHT.

b) Frederick HAMILTON married Mary Ann SALTER, 17th April 1854? (other dates crossed out!), at the Register Office in the district of St Pancras, Middlesex.

Frederick HAMILTON, 22 years Bachelor, Carpenter, 2 Aldenham Terrace. Father: George HAMILTON, Engineer (deceased).

Mary Ann SALTER, 20 years, Spinster, 15 Platt Terrace, Father: William SALTER, Cowkeeper, (deceased).

Signed: Frederick HAMILTON & Mary Ann SALTER. Witnesses: Edward Austing, 32 Sidney Street (????), and John Radley, 1 Ampthill Square.
Two registrars: John War??? and Joseph Iv????? .

Hope this info helps. Many thanks for your interest.

Regards
Victor

Hi Victor,

Could you give the following details from Georges and Fredericks marriage certificates please;

Their address given and the witnesses names please.

Many thanks for your help Vera. Yes, the origins of George HAMILTON really are a puzzle. His children were George, Frederick, William James, Alfred, Florence, Katherine and Alice, so I keep my eyes open for these names! The 'Frasi' family line still remains of interest, though like you I am puzzled by young Frederick's occupation as a Carpenter.

I still think that there is a good chance of George being born abroad, and that Ireland is as likely a place as any.

Regards

Victor

Victor

Good and bad news as you say. Can't understand the carpenter occupation for Frederick.. When with George Frase/Frasi in 1851 he was an apprentice and George Frasi employed men in an Iron Foundry.

I have looked around a couple of the Irish sites for Dublin births/baptisms and although a couple for George Hamilton 1836/37, they do not fit with father of Geroge Frederick or even just George Hamilton.

There is someone on Genes who post a lot about Irish sites. Can't remember name for now but maybe she could help. Will post link if I find it.

Maybe a further look at the Fraser/Frase/Frasi f amily might turn something up re their parents.

Regards

Vera

I don't know whether to laugh or cry! Following up on Vera and Pottys' very feasible suggestions that George HAMILTON may have had a brother Frederick (born around 1834 in Ireland) I have just obtained the Certificate for Frederick's marriage to Mary Ann SALTER in St Pancras Registry Office in April 1854.

The good news is that both George and Frederick married in Registry Offices (although different ones - St Lukes and St Pancras, respectively).

Furthermore, Frederick's father was described as 'Engineer, Deceased' - the same occupation as that given by George for his father!

The less good news is that the name of Frederick's father is given simply as 'George HAMILTON' - not the 'Frederick George HAMILTON' given by his son George. Furthermore, young Frederick's occupation is given as 'Carpenter' in 1854 (though he may have progressed to 'Civil Engineer' by 1861.

It therefore still remains feasible that George and Frederick were brothers, and that George HAMILTON was also born in Ireland! I wonder. Can anyone find a George HAMILTON born to Frederick George HAMILTON (Engineer) in Ireland (Dublin?) around 1836?

I would be very grateful for any help on this problem, which has teased me for several years. Many thanks to you all for your helpful suggestions to date.

Kind regards
Victor

How lovely to get such brilliant support! Thank you so much!
The only clues I had found to George HAMILTON's background in my own studies were from the names of his children, George, Frederick, William, Alfred, Florence, Katherine and Alice (1881 Census). I also suspected that I had found him at school in the 1841 and 1851 Censuses, though his given ages were a couple of years younger than what I had expected from his later census and marriage data. I knew his father's name (i.e. Frederick George HAMILTON) from George's marriage certificate of 1860 (at which time his father was reported dead).
The new possible 'Irish connection' is most interesting - and very feasible! The first marriage of George's future daughter-in-law (Blanche Adelaide JAMES; 1893) was to John BARNETT (born Ireland; Gas Stoker), the son of an Irish Fisherman, Bat BARNETT! George may well have stayed with or been brought up by Irish relatives in London if his parents had died early.

Many thanks for your help. I will check this info out!
Kind regards, Victor

Looks as if Frederick married Mary Ann Salter - that marriage cert would give his father's name and occupation, to confirm whether or not he is another brother:

Marriages Jun 1854 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>HAMILTON Frederick St Pancras 1b 201
MOSS Elizabeth St Pancras 1b 201
>>>>>>Salter Mary Ann St Pancras 1b 201
SMITH John St Pancras 1b 201
SPINK John St Pancras 1b 201

Just wiondered if this could be a brother. He is a civil engineer and in 1851 living with aunt and uncle Fraser's accompanied by brother Joseph b 1836. Both born in Ireland

1861 England Census
about Frederick Hamilton Name: Frederick Hamilton
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Anne Hamilton
Gender: Male
Where born: Dublin, Ireland

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: Charterhouse St Thomas
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: St Luke
Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 132
Piece: 206
Folio: 84
Page Number: 22
Household Members: Name Age
Frederick Hamilton 27
Mary Anne Hamilton 26
Frederick Hamilton 6
Helen M Hamilton 3
Florence E Hamilton 1


1851 England Census
about Fredk Hamilton Name: Fredk Hamilton
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Nephew
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Islington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington East
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 105
Piece: 1501
Folio: 534
Page Number: 41
Household Members: Name Age
George Frase 44
Harriet Frase 40
Geo Frase 11
Frances J Frase 9
Horace Frase 7
Florence Frase 4
Percy Frase 3
Fredk Hamilton 17
Joseph Hamilton 15
Mary Ann Salter 18
Emily Woodward 16

Vera

Victor, re your PM saying that you think these three boys are your family and how do you find their parents:

I would guess that their father was either working away, possibly overseas, or dead before 1841. You will need to find their baptisms to find their mother's name. I have looked but can't find them. I have also tried looking for the other brothers on the census, but nothing obvious is coming up.