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OK this just gets weirder!

I think now this Henry is not connected to my Chapmans. Did seem odd they had a son named Chas Hy in 1877 and then another named Hy!

But get this - Wm is also a shoemaker AND Hy snr's birthplace is exactly the same as Wm's! Could be brothers?

1881 Census
William CHAPMAN Head M Male 40 Clements Lane, Middlesex, England Shoemaker
Emma CHAPMAN Wife M Female 29 Lambeth, Surrey, England
Emma CHAPMAN Daur Female 10 London Endell St, London, Middlesex, England
Caroline CHAPMAN Daur Female 7 London Endell St, London, Middlesex, England
Charles H. CHAPMAN Son Male 3 London Endell St, London, Middlesex, England


Lydia 1875 still missing from 1881 census. But her birth cert shows birthplace as Endell St same as those above and they are together in a home in 1891...then again I think Hy was there too...hang on...yep

1891 Census
Strand Union Infant Establishment, Millfield House Tanners End Upper Edmonton Reg District: Edmonton
Transcribed as Lydia Gooding but image is Chapman - Gooding is the family above.
Lydia Chapman age 15
Charles Chapman age 13
Henry Chapman age 9


I think this is Hy snr in 1881
Henry CHAPMAN
Male
Birth Year
Birthplace Mile End, Middlesex, England
Age 39
Occupation Boot Maker
Marital Status U
Head of Household Robert HEWISON
Relation Ldgr
Disability

Source Information:
Dwelling 19 Holles St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341072
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0334 / 11
Page Number 16


Oh this lot will be the death of me!!! :-S

OMG brain wave!!!!


Marriages Jun 1889 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>CHAPMAN Emma Strand 1b 964
>>>>CHAPMAN Henry Strand 1b 964


We know Wm died by 1900 and I reckon it is the one in Strand in 1886.

SO...maybe our dear Emma remarried to Henry!!! THAT would explain why Henry is with her in 1901! This works according to her age in 1911, and assuming the 1891 should be 39 not 29.

*does happy dance*

What do you think?! :-D

Looks possible were there not rules on marrying your dead brothers wife or was it only dead wifes sister :-D

Shame there is nothing on the London marriages that I can see

jax

hehe, thanks Jax! Lucky there were no rules about cousins marrying or hubby's lot would have been in strife :-D

Any sign of Chas CHAPMAN b. 1877 St Giles in 1901 or 1911???

?????? He is a shoemaker working on his own account at home


1901 England Census
about Charles Chapman Name: Charles Chapman
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Chapman
Gender: Male
Where born: Strand, London, England

Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Somers Town
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: St Pancras
Sub-registration district: Somers Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 79
Piece: 146
Folio: 10
Page Number: 11
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Chapman 23
Ann Chapman 22
Charles Chapman 3/12
Frederick Anderson 18

Vera

???? Father William Chapman a Shoe Maker. Charles a Waiter.

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Charles Henry Chapman Name: Charles Henry Chapman
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Spouse Name: Ann Eliza Fruin
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 6 Aug 1899
Parish: Somers Town St Mary the Virgin
Borough: Camden
Father Name: William Chapman
Spouse Father Name: John Fruin
Register Type: Parish Register


Vera

Yes! Great work, Vera, this has to be him. :-)

P.S. Does it happen to indicate if father Wm is deceased?

Not deceased on marriage record.

He is hiding somewhere in 1911.

Vera

Hmm so would it definitely say if he was decd?

Can I push my luck and ask you to check for Emma CHAPMAN b. 1871 St Giles and Caroline CHAPMAN b. 1873 St Giles in 1891 please?

I cannot find definite marriages using Free BMD, and they are not with their 3 younger sibs in 1891 (at a home in Strand). Maybe they are working somewhere. Seems unlikely Caroline would have been married by then.

Also (stretching the friendship further!) can you see above Henry CHAPMAN b. 1842 St Clements Dane/St Luke/Mile End Mdsx in the 1861 census please?

Thank you!

Cheers
Cherilyn

1891

SHRIVELL, William Head Married M 44 1847 Art Metal Worker
Lambeth
London VIEW
SHRIVELL, Annie Wife Married F 46 1845
Whitechapel
London VIEW
SHRIVELL, Arthur E M Son Single M 19 1872 Art Metal Worker
St Martins
London VIEW
SHRIVELL, Annie C M Daughter Single F 19 1872 Milliner
St Martins
London VIEW
SHRIVELL, Marie I Daughter Single F 16 1875 Scholar
St Martins
London VIEW
>>>>CHAPMAN, Caroline Servant Single F 19 1872 General Servant Domestic
St Giles
London VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
213 Folio:
111 Page:
54 Registration District:
Strand

Civil Parish:
St Martin in the Fields Municipal Borough:
Address:
1, Castle Street, St Martin In The Fields, London County:
London

here are a William and Henry CHAPMAN together -


1861

CLUBMAN, Maria Head Widow F 62 1799
Welwyn
Hertfordshire VIEW
CLUBMAN, Willm Son Married M 25 1836 Shoemaker
St Clement Danes
Middlesex VIEW
CLUBMAN, Henry Son Unmarried M 19 1842 Shoemaker
St Clement Danes
Middlesex VIEW
BROMFIELD, Elizabeth Granddaughter Unmarried F 14 1847
Kensington
Middlesex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
178 Folio:
84 Page:
26 Registration District:
Strand

Civil Parish:
St Clement Danes Municipal Borough:
Westminster Address:
23, Holles Street, St Clement Danes, Westminster County:
London


CHAPMAN ON ORIGINAL !

AND 1851

1851 census - household transcription
Person: CHAPMAN, Richard
Address: 28, Clements Lane, Saint Clement Danes, Westminster


census search results 1851 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation
Disability Where Born Original
census
image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHAPMAN, Richard Head Married M 55 1796 Shoe Maker
Pickworth Lincoln VIEW
CHAPMAN, Maria Wife Married F 51 1800
Williton
Kent VIEW
CHAPMAN, William Son Unmarried M 17 1834 Shoe Maker
St Clements West Minster VIEW
CHAPMAN, Charles Son Unmarried M 15 1836 Shoe Maker
St Lukes
Middlesex VIEW
CHAPMAN, Henry Son M 9 1842
St Lukes
Middlesex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
1512 Folio:
249 Page:
25 Registration District:
Strand

Civil Parish:
Saint Clement Danes Municipal Borough:
Westminster Address:
28, Clements Lane, Saint Clement Danes, Westminster County:
Middlesex

THEN WILLIAM & FAMILY probably
in 1841

1841 census - household transcription
Person: CHAPMAN, Richd
Address: Huntingdon Street, St Leonard Shoreditch, Tower Hamlets

census search results 1841 address search redefine current search
Name Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHAPMAN, Richd M 45 1796 VIEW
CHAPMAN, Maria F 40 1801 VIEW
CHAPMAN, Mary F 15 1826 Middlesex VIEW
CHAPMAN, Augustus M 13 1828 Middlesex VIEW
CHAPMAN, Richard M 9 1832 Middlesex VIEW
CHAPMAN, William M 7 1834 Middlesex VIEW
CHAPMAN, Charles M 5 1836 Middlesex VIEW
CHAPMAN, Eleanor F 2 1839 Middlesex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
709 Book/Folio:
1/6 Page:
5 Registration District:
Shoreditch

Civil Parish:
St Leonard Shoreditch Municipal Borough:
Tower Hamlets Address:
Huntingdon Street, St Leonard Shoreditch, Tower Hamlets County:
Middlesex

Omg this is great! I just ordered Wm's marriage cert so if it says father Richard I will be a happy girl. :-)

Thanks, Choccy!

Just got the certificate, marriage took place at the Register Office, Westminster, Mdsx. Says:

20th August 1869
William Chapman, 36, widower, shoemaker, of 8 White Hart St, Strand, son of Richard Chapman, shoemaker
married
Emma Morley, 18, spinster, 16 D???e Street, dau of Wm Morley, general dealer.

Witnesses: William Morley and Caroline Morley.

(Emma's father & sister or father and mother?)

So all fits in terms of age and father. And he was previously married....hmm...! Does this help find Emma's parents???

This is Caroline in 1881 - as soon as I saw it I knew the illegible street on the marriage certificate was Dacre! So witnesses were her parents.

Caroline MORLEY Head W Female 61 Westminster, Middlesex, England Charwoman
Charles MORLEY Son U Male 19 Westminster, Middlesex, England Carman
John T. WATSON Lodger U Male 25 Westminster, Middlesex, England Coppersmith (Unimployed)
Henry PENGRIEFF Visitor M Male 27 Westminster, Middlesex, England Letter Carrier (Cis)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 16 Dacre St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341026
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0117 / 108
Page Number 24

Any earlier censuses please? :-)

???
Marriages Dec 1843 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gonselvas Caroline Westminster 1 348
Morley William Westminster 1 348

This seems an unusual surname, especially given she states she was born in Middlesex!

There are also marriages for Julia Hannah GONSELVAS (possibly to Chas MORLEY!) and Mary Ann GONSELVAS in Westminster in 1840s.

???
1881
Charles MORLEY Head M Male 51 Westmr, Middlesex, England Printers Warehouseman
Julia MORLEY Wife M Female 54 Westmr, Middlesex, England
William MORLEY Son U Male 17 Westmr, Middlesex, England Formerly Porter
Henry MORLEY Son Male 16 Westmr, Middlesex, England Printer
Caroline MORLEY Daur Female 14 Westmr, Middlesex, England Scholar
Susan MORLEY Daur Female 15 Westmr, Middlesex, England Scholar
Frances MORLEY Daur Female 20 Westmr, Middlesex, England Dom Servant
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 8 St Margarets St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341025
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0112 / 87
Page Number 37

1871

MORLEY, William Head M 46 1825 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Caroline Wife F 48 1823 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Charles Son M 9 1862 Middlesex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
127 Folio:
25 Page:
41 Registration District:
St George Hanover Square

Civil Parish:
St Margaret Municipal Borough:
Westminster Address:
Dacre St, St Margaret, Westminster County:
London, Middlesex




living next door -

1871

MORLEY, Charles Head M 43 1828 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Julia H Wife F 46 1825 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Charles Son M 17 1854 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Mary A Daughter F 15 1856 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Theresa Daughter F 12 1859 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, William Son M 10 1861 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Henry Son M 7 1864 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Susan Daughter F 6 1865 Middlesex VIEW
MORLEY, Caroline Daughter F 4 1867 Middlesex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
127 Folio:
24 Page:
40 Registration District:
St George Hanover Square

Civil Parish:
St Margaret Municipal Borough:
Westminster Address:
Dacre St, St Margaret, Westminster County:
London, Middlesex

Probable Marriage of Richard Chapman and Maria

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: Richard Chapman
Spouse Name: Maria Howard
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 6 Sep 1824
Parish: Westminster St Martin in the Fields
Borough: Westminster
Register Type: Bishop's Transcript