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I am trying to track down my great grandmothers details and I am wondering if the two people below are the same:

Any help would be greatly appreciated;

1901 CENSUS

Name: Mary Graham
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Withington
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:


Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Didsbury
ED, institution, or vessel: Chorlton Union Workhouse
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 3673
Folio: 157
Page Number: 18

1891 CENSUS

Name: Mary Graham
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard Graham
Mother's Name: Mary A Graham
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Chorlton on Medlock
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:


Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors:
Piece: 3182
Folio: 133
Page Number

Thanks to anyone who can help

Danny

it is possible
did she marry, her fathers name would be on the certificate.
Have you found her birth
Maddie

I have marraige cert her dads name is Richard sorry forgot to write that above but I sent off for birth cert and mother is down as Mary Jane Graham and no maiden name plus no father.

Also if it is my great grandma then she had 3 kids that I know of however in the 1901 census in the place she lived the chorlton union workhouse there is a 1 month old baby of same surname??? No sign of this baby after this though.

Danny

So the birth was illegitimate, and the father was probably invented for the look of things when she married - unless you have certs for two different people

Who did she marry? When did she marry? How old was she?
What else did she say about her 'father'?

Which of her children is your proven direct line?

When did Mary die?

How do you know you have the right birth cert?
Also, who are the witnesses - might they be family members?
Jan

The baby on the 1901 is listed directly below Mary - and her name is Margaret

Mary's occupation is Housemaid - domestic. Does that tally with the marriage cert?

Which birth cert did you buy? I can see at least two possibles (she could have been born late 1883)

I have traced the family back on the census The rest of the family in 1891:

Richard Graham 62
Mary A Graham 45
Thomas Graham 13
Mary Graham 7
Susan Lute 21
Thomas Lute 21
Thomas Lute 2/12

The same family in 1881:

1881 England Census
about Thomas Graham
Name: Thomas Graham
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Richard Graham
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Graham
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchestr, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: 8 Lower Brook St
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Market Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3997
Folio: 15
Page Number: 11
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Graham 52
Mary Ann Graham 40
Samuel Graham 16
Susan Graham 14
Elizabeth Graham 11
Thomas Graham 4
Mary Endle 66 Mother in law



1871 England Census
about Samuel Graham
Name: Samuel Graham
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Richd Graham
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Graham
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: St John
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Deansgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Household schedule number: 109
Piece: 4038
Folio: 137
Page Number: 20
Household Members: Name Age
Richd Graham 43
Mary Ann Graham 40
Mary Jane Graham 20
Ellen Graham 18
Samuel Graham 6
Susan Graham 5
Sarah Graham

I can't yet find them in 1861 or a marriage between and Endle and a Graham.

Just wondering if Richard married 2 Mary Anns? Her age seems to change a lot.

There's this one:
Marriages Sep 1876
GRAHAM Richard Chorlton 8c 811
HINDLE Mary Ann Chorlton 8c 811

Maureen

I wondered that too, Maureen. The 1876 marriage would tie in with the birth of Thomas in 1877 and explain the age gap between him and Elizabeth.

Seems likely,doesn't it?

Just wish we knew who the daughter was supposed to have married!

Maureen

the link to the marriage certificate of the above marriage

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12649-48964-16?cc=1788853&wc=10932222

Richard was a spinner age 40 & a widower, father Samuel Graham, book keeper

Mary Ann was age 30 and a spinster

Thanks Ann!

Maureen

ages vary rather a lot from that 1881 census!

Richard has ages 12 yrs since the marriage in 1876 and Mary Ann 10yrs

Strangely, this looks like it could be Richard,s first marriage but not to a 'Mary Ann' ??

His father's name and occupation also fit?

Marriage: 4 Jun 1848 St Thomas, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Richard Graham - (X), above Piecer Bachelor of Ardwick
Bea McNualty - (X), above Piecer Spinster of Ardwick
Groom's Father: Samuel Graham, Book keeper
Bride's Father: Andrew McNualty, Labourer
Witness: Thomas Hazlehurst; Ellen McNualty, (X)
Married by Banns by: J. P. Pitcairn (Curate)
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1863, Page 69, Entry 138
Source: LDS Film 2148094

Dea x

Finally found Richard in 1861 - he is down as unmarried but the girls are shown as his daughters:

1861 England Census
about M J Graham
Name: M J Graham
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: R Graham
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Deansgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 237
Piece: 2942
Folio: 66
Page Number: 46
Household Members: Name Age
R Graham 31
M J Graham 11
E Graham 8

Given the age gap between the children in the 1871, perhaps he was married three times, but in 1861 he is shown as unmarried. (Could somebody else check the image, to make sure I have not mis-read it?)

This looks like them on 1851?

1851 England Census
about Richd Graham Name: Richd Graham
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Bridgt Graham
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Johns
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: 31 Back Queen St.


Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Deansgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 1r
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 23
Piece: 2227
Folio: 493
Page Number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
Richd Graham 22 weaver.
Bridgt Graham 21
Jane Graham 7 - I think image says 1 !!! - Could this be Mary Jane from 1871 ?


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2227; Folio: 493; Page: 19; .


Perhaps someone could tell me - did I once read that Bridget is the Isish equivalent of Mary ??

Dea x

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12653-33222-25?cc=1788853&wc=10932047

on this mariage Richard did not sign the registsre but 'made his mark'

on the 1876 he signed his name (in clear handwriting)

unfortunately the age for both is just given as 'above'

just had to share this one

I was trawling through looking for a possible baptism for Mary and found several baptisms for children with the surname 'strong ith arm'

Thanks very much for all the replys guys here is exactly what I have:

My Mum - Denise Kirkham

Her Dad - Richard Kirkham b. Feb 1912 - d. Feb 2003

His Mum and Dad were George Kirkham & Mary Graham
Married fifth Sept 1903 George aged 18 Mary 19
Marys Dad listed as Richard Graham on marraige cert deceased at the time of marraige previous occ had been a cotton operative.
Marys Address 6 Burton Street, Chorlton Upon Medlock.

Witnessses looks like S Graham & W Kirkham

@ St Augustines Catholic Church Manchester

Now onto what I think is Marys Birth Cert which I also have ( Judeged mainly by the ages on Marraige cert and census info.

This is where I get confused:

Birth cert says Born 15th sept 1884 Mary (girl) under mothers maiden name etc it says Mary Jane Graham - Domestic Servant and no father is listed. From what I see above Mary Jane is listed in the 1871 census as Richard & Mary Anns Daughter? Confused!

All this stuff above about Richard has blown me away but I guess I need to find out what he is to me first 3 or 2 times Great Grandfather?

All the help so far has been fantastic and if anyone else can help please let me know.

Kind reagrds Danny.