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I am looking for some advice here more than any records.

My great grandfather, David Hatelie, was born Montreal, Canada on 22 Aug 1863 and died 24 Dec 1904. I have these dates from the National Archives as he was in the RN. I also have his marriage certificate in 1885, which has his father as David Hatelie, a Lieutenant Colonel. Not recorded as being deceased. This is the first solid detail I have. I also have the 1901 census and his probate.

I have never been able to find anything else about his father David but have been wondering about this.

Worldwide Army Index1861

First Name(s):David

Last Name:Hatelie

Number:5469

Rank:Sergeant

Unit:3rd Foot Guards (Scots Fusilier)

Regiment Stationed at:London

His discharge papers in 1876, has him at rank of color serjeant and state he had been serving in Canada between 20 Dec 1861 and 19 Sept 1864. He was discharged as 'he had come to the end of his second period of limited engagement.' He had been in service for over 21 years.

He was born in 1837 in the parish of Mid Calder, Scotland. I have found records from Kirkliston which may pertain to him. He stated on his papers that he was going to settle in Lewes.

I can find no further details on him.


My main question is, do you think this person, son of an ag lab, who seems to have ended his military career at the rank of color serjeant and the age of 40, could possibly have rejoined and risen to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel?

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Liz

??

1881

RG number: RG11
Piece: 1086
Folio: 25
Page: 44
Reg. District: Brighton
Sub District: St Peter
Parish: Brighton
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 53, Princes Road, Brighton
County: Sussex

HATCLIE, David Head Married M 43 1838 Army Pensioner
Scotland
HATCLIE, Matilda Wife Married F 41 1840 Laundress
Peckham, Kent


1891

RG number: RG12
Piece: 809
Folio: 102
Page: 33
Reg. District: Brighton
Sub District: St Peter
Parish: Brighton
Enum. District: 34
Ecclesiastical District: St Martin
City/Municipal Borough: Brighton
Address: 53, Princes Road, Brighton
County: Sussex

HATELIE, David Head Married M 53 1838 Laundry Man
Edinburgh, Scotland
HATELIE, Matilda Wife Married F 51 1840 Laundress
Tunbridge, Kent

1901

RG number: RG13
Piece: 941
Folio: 40
Page: 35
Reg. District: Steyning
Sub District: Shoreham
Parish: Preston
Enum. District: 45
Ecclesiastical District: St Augustine
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 167, Waldegrave Road, Preston
County: Sussex


HATCHE, David Head Married M 65 1836 Retired Launderer
Scotland
HATCHE, Matilda Wife Married F 61 1840 Retired Laundress
East Packham, Kent



1911

Reg. District: Steyning
Sub District: Preston
Parish: Preston
Enum. District: 11
Address: 167 Waldegrave Road Preston
County: Sussex

HATELIE, David Head Married M 75 1836 Army Pensioner Edenburgh Scotland
HATELIE, Matilda Wife Married
52 years F 72 1839 Peckham


2 children born and both have died

not even sure this is your David Hatelie !!


Marriages Mar 1860 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forrest Alexander Westminster 1a 396
>>>>>Hatelie David Westminster 1a 396
>>>>>Kingsbury Matilda Westminster 1a 396
Short Lucy Westminster 1a 396

Re. the possible rise to L. Colonel - having consulted my OH who is into all things historical & military, his opinion is 'no chance'!! But it's such a co-incidence isn't it. David senior was certainly in the right place at the right time, although Canada is a very big place!
I suppose a bit of exaggeration might have taken place? Especially if his parents did not marry.
Jan

David Jr.'s in hospital here:

1901 England Census
about David Hatche Name: David Hatche
[David Hatelie]
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Patient
Gender: Male
Where born: Montreal, Cornwall, England
[Montreal, Canada]

Civil parish: East Stonehouse
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: East Stonehouse
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Registration district: East Stonehouse
Sub-registration district: East Stonehouse
ED, institution, or vessel: Royal Naval Hospital

He's married, a chief engineer (Naval Officer)

Who is this one then? Father David was a sargeant in the army.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about George David Hatelie Name: George David Hatelie
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1862
Baptism Date: 3 Aug 1862
Father's Name: David Hatelie
Mother's Name: Matilda Hatelie
Parish or Poor Law Union: South Hackney St John of Jerusalem
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers

The rise in rank seems unlikely! If he WAS an officer there should be details of any promotions for him in the London Gazette which is searchable online

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search

Thank you all for your very valuable input! I will need to keep digging but you have given me some more ideas to look at.

Jan, I must admit that I rather thought your OH's reply was what I expected. The mention of Canada between the correct time time for David's birth was what had me wondering.

Choccy, those records certainly sound as if they match the David Hatelie, 1837, that I found. Will dig a bit deeper with them but I have a feeling that this is not my gg grandfather.

Margee, the 1901 is definitely my ggrandfather, I amended the record. The birth you have found must be one of the children born to David and Matilda who have died by 1911.

Annielaurie, thank you also. I will have a look but don't hold put much hope as I have a feeling I have looked before and found my ggrandfather's promotions but nothing about his father.

Thank you all.

Liz

I think that a likely explaination is that he was a lance corporal and the abreviation was mis transcribed ie L.Cor. to Lt.Col.

That makes sense, Michael!

I go along with Jan's post. The idea of him re-upping and making Lt Col in less than 9 y in a class-riddled institution like the peace-time British Army is not conceivable - it couldn't even have happened in WW1.

Thanks, once again, for your ideas.

I have just looked at my ggrandfather's marriage certificate again and he is an ass engineer RN (he rose to the rank of Engineer Commander before dying at sea in 1904). His father is David, Lieutenant Colonel. No abbreviations or mention of him being retired.

I have not been able to find a birth or death certificate for David jnr, and probably never will. I would have thought there would have been a death certificate even with him dying at sea.

So, it seems I am left with 2 options.

1) David snr is not the man from Mid Calder as per above records. Could he have been Canadian in the British Army? Or just someone I have not found yet.

2) David snr is the man above and has embellished his military service somewhat. The birth found for George David by Margee is worth checking out even though the baptism date is before the date of birth I have.

The problem I have with the above theory is that Matilda and George are not names that occur anywhere else in the family. David is there, with Donald, Dorothy and Patrick also amongst David jnr's children. They all have their mother's maiden name added in their names as per the Scottish custom so I would have expected Matilda, as David's mother, to make an appearance. William is David's father in law. The boys all born in Devon. I have no idea why they were in Glasgow for Dorothy's birth.


David William Fowler Hatelie 1886 – 1942
Dorothy Roy Mary Fowler Hatelie 1898 – 1933 b Glasgow
Donald Patrick F Hatelie 1900 – 1900
Donald David Patrick Fowler Hatelie 1903 – 1976

I think the marriage for the David Senior we found by Choccy is correct, going by Matilda's birthplace.. George David Hatelie must be their son surely, with such an unusual name and his father's occupation.

It is interesting that George was born 1862, given that his father was serving in Canada 1861-64. This suggests he went to Canada alone. Might it be speculating too far that he met your David's mother while there, if we run with the idea that he is the right David?

The other possibility is that he is your David and was never born in Canada in the first place!

It would be interesting to find them 1871.

1851 England Census

Name: Matilda Kingsbury
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Jesse Kingsbury
Mother's Name: Jane Kingsbury
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: East Peckham, Kent, England

Civil parish: East Peckham
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Malling
Sub-registration district: Aylesford

Jesse Kingsbury 44
Jane Kingsbury 40
William Kingsbury 17
Mary Kingsbury 15
Joseph Kingsbury 14
Matilda Kingsbury 11
Alfred Kingsbury 8
Jasse Humphrey 4
Elizabeth Humphrey 2
Issacha Humphrey 9 Mo
John Humphrey 21


Births Jun 1839 (>99%)
Kingsbury Matilda Malling 5 306

Oddly, she seems to be working as a servant in 1861 (after the marriage), unless there is another similar person around!

Jan

This looks to be the matchibg record for Margee's post

Births Mar 1862 (>99%)
HATELIE George David Marylebone 1a 465

For your David Hatelie born Montreal having served for 21 year and then to rejoined and rise to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel would be more than highly unlikely but not impossible

If you have details that he was the son of an ag lab then it's also unlikely that the marriage certificate in 1885, which has his father as David Hatelie, a Lieutenant Colonel is for the same man


In relation to your possible David Hatelie Lieutenant Colonel

Admiralty, 1st March, 1890.
THE undermentioned Assistant-Engineers have
this day been promoted to the rank of Engineer
in Her Majesty's Fleet, viz. :—
George Thomas Kerswell.
Charles Hedley Collins.
Ernest William Rodet.
George Gerald Knight.
Sidney Alexander Houghton.
David Hatelie.
Henry Thomas Knapman.
William Fryer Hinchcliff.
Marrack Seunett.


from http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26029/pages/1200/page.pdf

Lieutenants :—
Herbert P. 0. Sleigh.
William J. H. Bilderbeck.
Second Lieutenant David W. F. Hatelie

from http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28166/pages/5901/page.pdf

3rd Battalion, The Border Regiment, Second
Lieutenant David W". F. Hatelie resigns his
Commission. Dated 22nd September, 1909

from http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28290/pages/7048/page.pdf

related thread?

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/records_office/thread/1112970?d=desc

Roy

Hi Roy, nice to hear from you.

David Hatelie b Montreal is the Admiralty, 1st March, 1890. record.

His father, David is the Lt Colonel. This is the man I can find no definite records on.
I thought maybe the David I found, born Scotland, may be him. He had been in the military for 21 years and had spent a few years in Canada. His father appears to have been an ag lab.

The last 2 records are, I think, for Montreal David's son. He was David William Fowler Hatelie. Fowler was his mother's surname.

I have no idea why he would be in the Border Reg. when he was from Devon.


Sorry, must away to bed now but will check back tomorrow.

Liz

Possible reason for him serving with the border regiment,

Officers where and still are often posted to other regiments one reason is that the military always believed and still do that familiarity breads discontent which has a detrimental affect on disciplines.

Roy

Thanks Roy, I would be interested in getting records for DWF in the Border Regiment. I understand from googling that the 3rd battalion was a volunteer force.

Overseas BMD (Find My Past)

Death
Name: HATELIE, David
Vessel : Ceylon
Country: At sea
Year: 1905
Page: 5
Age at death: 41
Record source: GRO Marine Death Indices (1903 to 1965)

(is this the Death Cert.)

Chris :)