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A "Big Thank You" to everyone for all your assistance and advice, managed to get back to Isaac Birtwell and Margaret Cunliffe who I believe were the father and mother of Robert Birtwell who was born to them in 1817.

Thank You All

James :-)

Back then, daughter in law included both the modern relationship and what we now call stepdaughter.

the baptism of an Elizabeth Veasey on June 30th 1839 shows father Samuel (labourer) and mother Elizabeth

ancashireAnn,

Even back in those days women lied about their age LOL

on the marriage parish register Elizabeth is 'of full age' father Samuel a carman, Isaac's father Robert, gatekeeper. All of which fits with the known census details

one of the witnesses was Ellen Veasey

perhaps Elizabeth lied about her age in 1871, in 1881 she is the same age as Isaac (40 - still lying????)

The 1971 Census puzzles me as it does not add up, if Elizabeth Birtwell Daughter-In-Law, F 21 born 1850 in Middlesex, is Isaac's wife she would only have been about 9 if he married in1862, the Elizabeth Veazey I have was born in Islington in 1839 :-(

name: Isaac Birtnell
age: 40
gender: Male
birth year: 1841
birthplace: Accrington, Lancashire, England
relationship to head of household: Head
marital condition: Married
profession/occupation: Stonemason
address: 24 Milton Grove
census place: Islington, Middlesex, England
disability:
record type: Household
family history library film: 1341054
the national archives reference: RG11
piece/folio: 248 / 32
page number: 3
Household Gender Age Birthplace
head Isaac Birtnell M 40 Accrington, Lancashire, England
wife Elizabeth Birtnell F 40 Islington, Middlesex, England

Thanks safc,

Having carried out several extensive searches on Isaac Birtwell born abt 1840/1841, I think it is a fairly safe bet to say that Elizabeth Veazey was his wife.

Whoooo, don't think my brain has been so active since I was forced to retire two yeas ago.

Regards,

Jim :-)

1881 under the name Birtnell living in Islington with wife Elizabeth

found it by just looking for Isaac (no Surname) b 1841 in Accrington

groom's name: Isaac Birtwell
groom's birth date:
groom's birthplace:
groom's age:
bride's name: Elizabeth Veazey
bride's birth date:
bride's birthplace:
bride's age:
marriage date: 16 Nov 1862
marriage place: Saint John The Baptist,Shoreditch,London,England
groom's father's name:
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name:
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status:
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status:
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M04037-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 589947, 589948, 589949, 590841, 590842, 590843, 590844, 590845, 590846
reference number:

Thanks for that lancashireAnn,

I picked up Isaac Birtwell in London area on 1891 Census as follows:-

1891 Census

BIRTWELL, Isaac Head Married M 51 1840 Stone Mason
Accrington, Lancashire
BIRTWELL, Elizabeth Wife Married F 50 1841
Islington, London
BIRTWELL, Rose Daughter F 13 1878
Islington, London

And these details of a marriage in Shoreditch:-

Name: BIRTWELL, Isaac
Registration district: [?] Shoreditch
County: London
Year of registration: 1862
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name Not available before 1912
Volume no: [?] 1C
Page no: [?] 468

1881 VEAZEY, Elizabeth
Registration district: [?] Shoreditch
County: London
Year of registration: 1862
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Spouse's last name Not available before 1912
Volume no: [?] 1C
Page no: [?] 468

I have looked everywhere, he seems to have disappeared for the 1881 Census but in saying that I may have over looked him as I am seeing Birtwell's everywhere at the moment, that said I cannot find anything to suggest that Elizabeth Veazey was not his wife.

Regards,

James

Isaac is on the 1891 census living in London but can't find him in 1901 so this is possibly his death

Deaths Sep 1899 (>99%)
Birtwell Isaac 62 Uxbridge 3a 32

if it helps this is the 1871 census for Isaac (see Chris's 1871 detailed above)

Robert Birtwell 54
Mary Birtwell 53
Richard Birtwell 16
Thomas Birtwell 13
James Birtwell 10
Elizabeth Birtwell 19
Isaac Birtwell 30 - son of Robert
Elizabeth Birtwell 21 - Isaac's wife from Middlesex
Helen Birtwell 5 - Isaac's daughter born Middlesex

census place March in Cambridgeshire

from that info I would guess this is Isaac's marriage

Marriages Dec 1862 (>99%)
Birtwell Isaac Shoreditch 1c 468 <<<<<<<<
Martin Rosaline Shoreditch 1c 468
Stow Joseph Watson Shoreditch 1c 468
Veazey Elizabeth Shoreditch 1c 468 <<<<<<<<

you must be younger than me then James. I remember my friend being taken into an isolation hospital when she had scarlet fever.

by the way did you know that one of the best features of lan-opc is its search facility. I rarely use anything else as then you do not need to know which parish you want.

While I was browsing through lancashirebmd.org.uk trying to track the marriage/death details for Isaac Birtwell b 1841, I was amazed at how fatal scarlet fever was in the 19th century, when I was a child you were kept of school for a couple of weeks.

no you were right first time James. That was isaac's BIRTH not marriage that I posted showing his mother's maiden name was Monk, so Robert was married to Mary Monk. She may of course have been married before marrying Robert as it is always her birth surname that appears on the index

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1839
Surname = BERTWELL
Forename(s) = Isaac
Sub-District = Accrington
Registers At Preston
Mother's Maiden Name = MONK
Reference ACC/2/18

lancashireAnn, Reggie. and Chris Ho :)

Thanks everyone, with Isaac being married to May Monk the pieces of the jigsaw begin to make sense, in many ways it is like a jigsaw as once you have the border complete you can then fill in the rest.

I had a Robert married to Mary Monk instead of Isaac, but Robert was Isaac's father and that is where I screwed things up.

Thanks again everyone, wish I had just a fraction of your expertise, you are all brilliant.

Best Regards

James :-)

Burial
First name(s): Margaret
Last name: BIRTWELL
Date of burial 4 Jan 1859
Age at death: 14
Calculated year of birth: 1845
Place of burial March
Dedication: St Wendreda
County: Cambridgeshire

Chris :)

edits (can see Burial of son Thomas, also his 2 wives, if you need at any time!)

intersting??

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1845
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BIRTWELL Margaret Accrington Preston FRANKLAND ACC/5/94