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Kucinta
Thank you for your additional information.

At the very least it is a reasonable presumption that both families were related in such a small place as Westcombe.

Back to full time work today so time is restricted but investigating this will keep me out of trouble for a week or two!

Thanks again.
John

I should add that there were two children named George Walter baptised in Batcombe that could be the soldier George Walters born c1837 Shepton Mallet; one was the son of James and Hannah/Ann, the other the son of Samuel and Eliza, who were breeding in the area around the same time as James and
Hannah.

EDIT : Oops! I meant Richard and Hannah/Ann , not James!

So it could still be a red herring.

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 663
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 29 May 1836
Forename George
Sex M
FatherForename Samuel
MotherForename Eliza
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe
FatherOccupation Labourer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 687
DateOfBirth 21 Aug 1835
BaptismDate 09 Jul 1837
Forename George
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe late of Batcombe
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 6147

Given that Richard and Hannah's son is recorded as born 1835, it might even be more likely the soldier is Samuel and Eliza's son.

Not meaning to muddy the waters, just trying to give you as much info as possible to work with.

Hi Kucinta
On mature reflection and admitting the possibility that my chosen Ann was not the correct Ann and that William had a brother called George, you may be on to something with the George Walters in the the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. His discharge in Cork is starting to look significant.
Thanks, though it has opened up another even larger can of worms!
Cheers
John

I am not sure about being too young to enlist,,sure I have seen quite a few under 18s on Englsh records.

He may of just wanted to travel after all he had probably been working from a young teenager...he could have gone anywhere...Australia, Canada ect but chose Ireland

Thanks, Jude! :-)

Kucinta - good work!

John...I really do think the Ann in Bristol with her children are totally and utterly red herrings.

But I really do not know why young William would be in Cork in 1855 to enlist....unless he was too young to enlist legitimately over here?

I'd pursue the ancestral leads we have given though short of pitching up in parishes I don't know how! I'd also expend £9.25 getting the marriage certificate of Lucy Walters and Zebedee Croker. May well be the complete red herring - but it's worth a punt just to discount it :-)

Happy New Year - which of course it already is in Australia!!

Jude

This may be a complete red herring, but the 1871 census has a George Walters born c1837 Shepton Mallet (nearest place of any size to Westcombe and Batcombe), could this be William's brother from census 1841 and 1851?

Did both brothers join the military?

Name: George Walters
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Gender: Male
Where born: Shipton Mallet, Somerset, England
[Shepton Mallet, Somerset, England]
Civil Parish: St Mary
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales
Registration District: Brecknock
Sub-registration District: Brecknock
ED, institution, or vessel: Barracks

Flicking back through the census images it appears to be the 1/23, first battalion 23rd Regiment of Foot, Royal Welsh Fusiliers?

EDIT, found the record for this chap, and he was discharged at CORK in 1876. Just a co-incidence?

First name(s): George
Last name: WALTERS
Calculated year of birth: 1836
Parish of birth: Skiptonmallet
Town of birth: Bristor
County of birth: Somerset
Age at attestation: 18 years
Attestation date: 27 November 1854
Attestation corps:
Attestation soldier number:
Discharge rank: Private
Discharge corps: 1st Bn 23rd Reg Of R W Fusiliers
Discharge soldier number: 4568
The National Archives reference: WO97

No idea who the Ann in Bristol in 1841 is, or how old she was, given that the ages of over 15s in the 1841 census were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so that Ann could have been aged 20-24, or the answer to the question of the Irish connection..

However as someone else has pointed out, Hannah Walter (likely nee Thompson) almost certainly died in August 1841; It might explain why her youngest children George and William were living with Ann Walter, almost certainly the Ann nee Hill who married Frederick Walter son of Richard Walter, shoemaker, in Batcombe in 1837, in the 1851 census as posted earlier by Astra.

The 1861 census is pretty specific about Westcombe being William's birthplace, George and William living with Ann Walter in the 1851 have their birthplace given as Batcombe, and the baptisms for George and William both say abode Westcombe late of Batcombe ( I think I forgot to add George's baptism previously, so here it is)

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 687
DateOfBirth 21 Aug 1835
BaptismDate 09 Jul 1837
Forename George
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe late of Batcombe
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 6147

I really do think Jax and Jude were right, and was just trying to show the corroborating evidence.

If you google the name Ann, you will also see that it is the anglicised version of the Hebrew name Hannah - I think this may well be why the names were used so interchangeably in the past.

Hi Kucinta

Thank you for your researches adding to the work done by jax and jude.

I am slowly coming round to the thought that you might be right about Hannah/Anne/Ann but I would like to have a couple of things cleared up before I finally switch.
Why was William in Ireland and when did he go there and who was the Ann Walters in Bristol in the 1841 census with her two sons William and Alfred.
This should keep me occupied for a bit I think!
Thanks again for all your help.
Cheers and Happy New Year
John

Elizabeth Walter, daughter of Richard and 'Anne' Walter, whose baptism (posted previously) in Walcot St Swithin occured 10 months after the marriage of Richard Walter and Hannah Thompson :

County Somerset
Place Bath
Church Walcot - St Swithin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
RegisterNumber 1294
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 30 Nov 1817
Forename Elizabeth
Sex F
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Anne
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Dover Street
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 18496

In 1837 Richard Walter, shoemaker, is the father of an Elizabeth Walter who married in Batcombe.

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 2
MarriageDate 21 Aug 1837
GroomForename James
GroomSurname MITCHELL
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Labourer
GroomAbode Batcombe
BrideForename Elizabeth
BrideSurname WALTER
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Batcombe
GroomFatherForename John
GroomFatherSurname MITCHELL
GroomFatherOccupation Gardener
BrideFatherForename Richard
BrideFatherSurname WALTER
BrideFatherOccupation Shoemaker
WitnessOneForename George
WitnessOneSurname MITCHELL
WitnessTwoForename James
WitnessTwoSurname ELLIOTT
Notes Banns
FileNumber 6148

The other 1841 children:

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 548
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 03 Aug 1831
Forename Ellen
Sex F
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTERS
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes Privately baptized; brought to Church May 28 [18]33
FileNumber 6147

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 591
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 28 May 1833
Forename Clara
Sex F
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTERS
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 6147

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 688
DateOfBirth 10 Jun 1837
BaptismDate 09 Jul 1837
Forename William<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe late of Batcombe<<<<<<<<<<<
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 6147

EDIT: NB in 1861 census William's birthplace is recorded as WESTCOMBE..


and one who died before 1841:

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 321
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 01 Jan 1824
Forename Sarah
Sex F
FatherForename Richd
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes Died July 1838
FileNumber 6147

Again, apologies if any of these have been posted previously. I just wanted to show that the children of Richard and Hannah in 1841, had a mother who is usually recorded as Hannah, but sometimes as Ann . Also that Richard is variously described as either cordwainer or shoemaker.

EDIT: I believe the Mary Ann Walter you think is' your' William's mother, is in fact his sister, both being offspring of Richard Walter and Hannah/Ann Thompson.

Also as Jax stated earlier, on William and Lucy's marriage register entry there is no mention of father Richard, shoe maker, being deceased.

The 1841 census posted earlier:

Address: Westcombe Street, Batcombe
County: Somersetshire

WALTER, Richard M 45 1796 Somerset>>>>>>>Shoemaker
WALTER, Hannah F 45 1796 Somerset
WALTER, Richard M 15 1826 Somerset
WALTER, Jane F 13 1828 Somerset
WALTER, Ellen F 10 1831 Somerset
WALTER, Clara F 9 1832 Somerset
WALTER, George M 7 1834 Somerset
WALTER, William M 4 1837 Somerset

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 413
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 25 Dec 1826
Forename Richard
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

In this entry, Jane's mother is called Ann rather than Hannah....

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 470
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 04 Jan 1829
Forename Jane
Sex F
FatherForename Richd
MotherForename Ann
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

Note this earlier baptism that would tie in with the Walcot marriage I posted previously - and father Richard is a shoemaker, wife is called Anne here.

County Somerset
Place Bath
Church Walcot - St Swithin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
RegisterNumber 1294
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 30 Nov 1817
Forename Elizabeth
Sex F
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Anne
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Dover Street
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 18496

also:

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 231
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 11 Mar 1821
Forename Mary Ann
Sex -
FatherForename Richd
MotherForename Ann
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

In the following baptism Richard is a cordwainer ( a type of shoe maker) wife is called Ann (Hannah?)

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 230
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 11 Mar 1821
Forename Frederick
Sex -
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Ann
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

but for this baptism, wife is Hannah

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 413
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 25 Dec 1826
Forename Richard
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

Apologies if baptisms have already been posted.

???

County Somerset
Place Bath
Church Walcot - St Swithin Tr<<<<<<<<<<<<
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 15 Jan 1817
GroomForename Richard<<<<<<<<<<
GroomSurname WALTER<<<<<<<<<
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition
GroomOccupation
GroomAbode
BrideForename Hannah<<<<<<<<<<<
BrideSurname THOMPSON<<<<<<<<<<<
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode
GroomFatherForename
GroomFatherSurname
GroomFatherOccupation
BrideFatherForename
BrideFatherSurname
BrideFatherOccupation
WitnessOneForename
WitnessOneSurname
WitnessTwoForename
WitnessTwoSurname
Notes
FileNumber 18332

Just to add, as someone else has already said, that the names Ann/Anna/ Hannah are similar and I have come across instances of them being used interchangeably in records in my own research.

I'd certainly go with Richard and Hannah as William's parents.

I think that Lucy was working in Suffolk as a cook for a household there according to the information from the census. Zebedee Croker was a former guardsman also. His name appears in the same barracks as William in the 1861 census.
Cheers

John

John thanks - so the enlistment fits with the timeframe.

We are not professionals :-) just amateur enthusiasts.

We all use the same things that you would be able to use for free - FHS, freebmd etc

The Lucy Walters/Zebedee Croker marriage is interesting...true she appears to be in Suffolk (and her children in Surrey with relatives/friends).....

Jude

Hi Jude

My great grandfather William enlisted in Cork 19 January 1855. Information from the archivist of the Grenadier Guards. He is shown as living in Barracks described as 'married' in the 1861 census. He died on 28 May 1861.
My grandfather's birth certificate describes his deceased father as being a Private in the Grenadier Guards 1st Company, 2nd Battalion. His army number was 8135.

Whilst I appreciate your and others professionalism in definitely establishing the identity of William's mother and father, my original query was merely to ask if anyone could suggest online genealogical sources that were not 'mainstream' and which I may not have come across in my researches.

If you have any suggestions along those lines I would be very grateful.

Cheers

John

John I do not understand why you have posted five (at least) threads about this family if you will not countenance anything that is offered as an alternative to your tenuous beliefs.

The William that married Lucy is likely to be the one that can be found in 1841 1851 and 1861 censuses. For him to have enlisted in Cork is not impossible but it would have to be between 1852 and 1859 when he married.

I am sorry, but like Jax I will leave you to it

Jude