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Hi All

Many thanks to all of you for your interest in my family.

I am as sure as I can be that my paternal grandfather William was the child of William and Lucy and was born in 1861. Lucy's husband stated that his mother was Ann and his father was Richard. But I have not been able to identify either of them from the online records with certainty. I have made some assumptions on likely contenders on the basis that their details did not contradict anything known and sometimes confirmed a reasonable assumption.

This is why I was wondering if anybody could suggest online records that I may not have found because they are not mainstream and could possibly throw some light on my mysterious ancestors.

Any suggestions?

Cheers

John

Where have you got the info about his mother being Ann?

You said the marriage cert for William says his father was Richard and dec'd the one I saw does not say that he was dead

John, unless I have taken leave of my senses, it has been shown that your William is the more likely the son of Richard and Hannah and nothing to do with the Ann living in Bristol. And Hannah of course sounds very much like Ann anyway.

And as Jax says there is no mention of Richard being deceased on the marriage certificate and he states that his father was a shoemaker not a cordwainer.

There is some good research pointing to Richard and Hannah and their (at least) seven children

Jude

Have you tried to contact anyone on here who has any of the Walters in their trees?

They may have information that helps to confirm, or otherwise, any possible mutual ancestors.

You seem to think that boys would be tied to their mothers aprons strings and that she would be there with him in Ireland...No they were not.....18 was quite old to join up back then and what proof do you have that he is your William? all the marriage cert says is soldier....do you have anything passed down through the family to prove it

Also how do you know he was from Somerset?

Hi patchem and jax

To respond to your questions:

patchem. Good reminder. I haven't recently but it could be worth another try when I have a bit of time.

jax. I am confident that the William who enlisted in the Grenadier Guards in Cork was my great grandfather.

Thank you both for your interest and help.

Cheers

John

If you are certain I wont bother anymore you can make up your own mind who his parents were

John I do not understand why you have posted five (at least) threads about this family if you will not countenance anything that is offered as an alternative to your tenuous beliefs.

The William that married Lucy is likely to be the one that can be found in 1841 1851 and 1861 censuses. For him to have enlisted in Cork is not impossible but it would have to be between 1852 and 1859 when he married.

I am sorry, but like Jax I will leave you to it

Jude

Hi Jude

My great grandfather William enlisted in Cork 19 January 1855. Information from the archivist of the Grenadier Guards. He is shown as living in Barracks described as 'married' in the 1861 census. He died on 28 May 1861.
My grandfather's birth certificate describes his deceased father as being a Private in the Grenadier Guards 1st Company, 2nd Battalion. His army number was 8135.

Whilst I appreciate your and others professionalism in definitely establishing the identity of William's mother and father, my original query was merely to ask if anyone could suggest online genealogical sources that were not 'mainstream' and which I may not have come across in my researches.

If you have any suggestions along those lines I would be very grateful.

Cheers

John

John thanks - so the enlistment fits with the timeframe.

We are not professionals :-) just amateur enthusiasts.

We all use the same things that you would be able to use for free - FHS, freebmd etc

The Lucy Walters/Zebedee Croker marriage is interesting...true she appears to be in Suffolk (and her children in Surrey with relatives/friends).....

Jude

I think that Lucy was working in Suffolk as a cook for a household there according to the information from the census. Zebedee Croker was a former guardsman also. His name appears in the same barracks as William in the 1861 census.
Cheers

John

Just to add, as someone else has already said, that the names Ann/Anna/ Hannah are similar and I have come across instances of them being used interchangeably in records in my own research.

I'd certainly go with Richard and Hannah as William's parents.

???

County Somerset
Place Bath
Church Walcot - St Swithin Tr<<<<<<<<<<<<
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 15 Jan 1817
GroomForename Richard<<<<<<<<<<
GroomSurname WALTER<<<<<<<<<
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition
GroomOccupation
GroomAbode
BrideForename Hannah<<<<<<<<<<<
BrideSurname THOMPSON<<<<<<<<<<<
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode
GroomFatherForename
GroomFatherSurname
GroomFatherOccupation
BrideFatherForename
BrideFatherSurname
BrideFatherOccupation
WitnessOneForename
WitnessOneSurname
WitnessTwoForename
WitnessTwoSurname
Notes
FileNumber 18332

In the following baptism Richard is a cordwainer ( a type of shoe maker) wife is called Ann (Hannah?)

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 230
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 11 Mar 1821
Forename Frederick
Sex -
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Ann
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

but for this baptism, wife is Hannah

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 413
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 25 Dec 1826
Forename Richard
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

Apologies if baptisms have already been posted.

Note this earlier baptism that would tie in with the Walcot marriage I posted previously - and father Richard is a shoemaker, wife is called Anne here.

County Somerset
Place Bath
Church Walcot - St Swithin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
RegisterNumber 1294
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 30 Nov 1817
Forename Elizabeth
Sex F
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Anne
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Dover Street
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 18496

also:

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 231
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 11 Mar 1821
Forename Mary Ann
Sex -
FatherForename Richd
MotherForename Ann
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

The 1841 census posted earlier:

Address: Westcombe Street, Batcombe
County: Somersetshire

WALTER, Richard M 45 1796 Somerset>>>>>>>Shoemaker
WALTER, Hannah F 45 1796 Somerset
WALTER, Richard M 15 1826 Somerset
WALTER, Jane F 13 1828 Somerset
WALTER, Ellen F 10 1831 Somerset
WALTER, Clara F 9 1832 Somerset
WALTER, George M 7 1834 Somerset
WALTER, William M 4 1837 Somerset

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 413
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 25 Dec 1826
Forename Richard
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

In this entry, Jane's mother is called Ann rather than Hannah....

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 470
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 04 Jan 1829
Forename Jane
Sex F
FatherForename Richd
MotherForename Ann
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes
FileNumber 6147

The other 1841 children:

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 548
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 03 Aug 1831
Forename Ellen
Sex F
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTERS
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes Privately baptized; brought to Church May 28 [18]33
FileNumber 6147

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 591
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 28 May 1833
Forename Clara
Sex F
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTERS
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 6147

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 688
DateOfBirth 10 Jun 1837
BaptismDate 09 Jul 1837
Forename William<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe late of Batcombe<<<<<<<<<<<
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 6147

EDIT: NB in 1861 census William's birthplace is recorded as WESTCOMBE..


and one who died before 1841:

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 321
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 01 Jan 1824
Forename Sarah
Sex F
FatherForename Richd
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Batcombe
FatherOccupation Cordwainer
Notes Died July 1838
FileNumber 6147

Again, apologies if any of these have been posted previously. I just wanted to show that the children of Richard and Hannah in 1841, had a mother who is usually recorded as Hannah, but sometimes as Ann . Also that Richard is variously described as either cordwainer or shoemaker.

EDIT: I believe the Mary Ann Walter you think is' your' William's mother, is in fact his sister, both being offspring of Richard Walter and Hannah/Ann Thompson.

Also as Jax stated earlier, on William and Lucy's marriage register entry there is no mention of father Richard, shoe maker, being deceased.

Elizabeth Walter, daughter of Richard and 'Anne' Walter, whose baptism (posted previously) in Walcot St Swithin occured 10 months after the marriage of Richard Walter and Hannah Thompson :

County Somerset
Place Bath
Church Walcot - St Swithin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
RegisterNumber 1294
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 30 Nov 1817
Forename Elizabeth
Sex F
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Anne
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Dover Street
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 18496

In 1837 Richard Walter, shoemaker, is the father of an Elizabeth Walter who married in Batcombe.

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 2
MarriageDate 21 Aug 1837
GroomForename James
GroomSurname MITCHELL
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Labourer
GroomAbode Batcombe
BrideForename Elizabeth
BrideSurname WALTER
BrideAge
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Batcombe
GroomFatherForename John
GroomFatherSurname MITCHELL
GroomFatherOccupation Gardener
BrideFatherForename Richard
BrideFatherSurname WALTER
BrideFatherOccupation Shoemaker
WitnessOneForename George
WitnessOneSurname MITCHELL
WitnessTwoForename James
WitnessTwoSurname ELLIOTT
Notes Banns
FileNumber 6148

Hi Kucinta

Thank you for your researches adding to the work done by jax and jude.

I am slowly coming round to the thought that you might be right about Hannah/Anne/Ann but I would like to have a couple of things cleared up before I finally switch.
Why was William in Ireland and when did he go there and who was the Ann Walters in Bristol in the 1841 census with her two sons William and Alfred.
This should keep me occupied for a bit I think!
Thanks again for all your help.
Cheers and Happy New Year
John

No idea who the Ann in Bristol in 1841 is, or how old she was, given that the ages of over 15s in the 1841 census were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so that Ann could have been aged 20-24, or the answer to the question of the Irish connection..

However as someone else has pointed out, Hannah Walter (likely nee Thompson) almost certainly died in August 1841; It might explain why her youngest children George and William were living with Ann Walter, almost certainly the Ann nee Hill who married Frederick Walter son of Richard Walter, shoemaker, in Batcombe in 1837, in the 1851 census as posted earlier by Astra.

The 1861 census is pretty specific about Westcombe being William's birthplace, George and William living with Ann Walter in the 1851 have their birthplace given as Batcombe, and the baptisms for George and William both say abode Westcombe late of Batcombe ( I think I forgot to add George's baptism previously, so here it is)

County Somerset
Place Batcombe
Church St Mary the Virgin
RegisterNumber 687
DateOfBirth 21 Aug 1835
BaptismDate 09 Jul 1837
Forename George
Sex M
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Hannah
FatherSurname WALTER
MotherSurname
Abode Westcombe late of Batcombe
FatherOccupation Shoemaker
Notes
FileNumber 6147

I really do think Jax and Jude were right, and was just trying to show the corroborating evidence.

If you google the name Ann, you will also see that it is the anglicised version of the Hebrew name Hannah - I think this may well be why the names were used so interchangeably in the past.