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Hello all you good people.

Trying to trace (with other family members) our family of Turners and in particular the family of William Turner b 1860 Southwark.

We have spent excessive amount of time on this and are pleased with what we have found so far. Going to the next stage back, William Turner's father was William Turner, but it is a common name - Turner and William Turner.

My relative has just sent for the birth certificate of William Turner b 1860 to see if we can establish a bit more information.

The address is the interesting one. So.................

Looking for persons living at 288 and 282 Tabard Street, Southwark, Newington, Surrey.

We have the following information:

William Turner married Amy Noble 5/05/1879 - living at 4 Rodney Rd, St. Saviour, Surrey.

Johanna was born 1 Westcott Street, Southwark 04/12/1880.
William James born 17 Clarendon Street, 30/01/1893 died 288 Tabard Street, Southwark, 10/09/1905.

William Turner (snr.) died aged 43 years 15/12/1903 288 Tabard Street, Southwark.
Amy Turner (Widow) residing at 282 Tabard Street, Southwark marries 11/09/1916
George Francis Smith also living 282 Tabard Street, Southwark.
Amy Smith (formerly Turner nee Noble) dies 282 Tabard Street, Southwark 03/05/1933.

I hope I have not overloaded information, but we are trying to find one William (possibly William James) Turner, father of William Turner born 1860.

Phew!! Any ideas. Census seems to have let us down. It can be difficult as with census it is down to interpretation of what is said and what is heard.

Any help would be appreciated.

Many thanks,

Sappho

Any help? or red herring? There are other Turners in the same street.


1911 England Census
about William Turner




Name:
William Turner

Age in 1911:51
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1860
Relation to Head:Lodger
Gender:Male
Birth Place:Rotherhithe
Civil Parish:Newington St Mary
County/Island:London
Country:England
Street address:
>>>>>>>Common Lodging House, 142 Tabard St, Boro S E
Marital Status:Single
Occupation:PEDLAR
Registration district:Southwark
Registration District Number:23
Sub-registration district:
Newington North
ED, institution, or vessel:6
Piece:1798


Long list of other nmaes

Andy

Hi Andy,

That was quick,

Just had to do an edit.

So this is the year of our William Turner and so Tabard Street (142) seems to be a lodging house.

What other names on the list - anything you think may be relevant to our Turner family.
We are searching hard for father of William Turner so we can trce back. I just thought address search may help.

Thanks so much for this - could be relevant.

Sappho

do you have the 1881 census (the only one searchable by address at Ancestry before 1911)?

There are 14 people at 282 Tabard, Newington, St Saviour Southwark

A large Johnson family

Luke Johnson 47
Charlotte Johnson 46
Luke Johnson 24
James Johnson 22
William Johnson 16
Elizabeth Johnson 14
Robert Johnson 8
Agnes Johnson 6
Louisa Johnson 3
Charlotte Hinton 70 (mother of Charlotte Johnson)
Eliza Johnson 22
Eliza Johnson 3
Charlotte Johnson
Alfred Page 21

288 is not shown ... the image skips from 286 to 290 with no indication of an uninhabited dwelling

it seems you know that William was at 288 in 1903 and Amy was at 282 in 1916 and later ... but isn't it unlikely that you would find William's father there at that late date?

Sorry Andy - he is 51 years old. Our William died aged 43 years in 1903 at 288 Tabard Street.

Interesting though - just shows there are a good few William Turners.

Thanks
Sappho

so I'm confused ...

'William Turner (snr.) died aged 43 years 15/12/1903 288 Tabard Street, Southwark'

are you sure that is your William Turner?

Hi JoonieCloonie,

Yes, of course, you are right. But had hopes of some family members there - maybe.

Any other ideas.

Sappho.

Always impressed how you come up with information you do - thanks so much.

for our info

1901

Name: William Turner
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Amy Turner
Birth Place: Borough
Civil Parish: Southwark St George the Martyr
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen Southwark
County/Island: London

address: 3 Luke [Hunter? St?] bldgs

William Turner 41
Amy Turner 40
Jerema Turner 20
Thomas Turner 16
William Turner 8
Amy Turner 6

Marriages Sep 1916
Smith George F Turner Southwark 1d 22
Turner Amy Smith Southwark 1d 22

so she was already living as Smith in 1911


Name: Amy Smith
Age in 1911: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Southwark, London, England
Civil Parish: Newington St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England
> Street address: 278 Tabard St SE
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 2
Estimated Marriage Year: 1909
Registration district: Southwark
Registration District Number: 23
Sub-registration district: Newington North
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Piece: 1798
Household Members:
Name Age
George Smith 41
Amy Smith 43

Yes, this is correcft.

Must admit took me a year to find this and again with the help of Genes helpers. Nothing is easy with Turners. There was a lot of family names coming down the line the same.

Amy on the female side and William on the male side. Makes it difficult and we can only go by the certificates. When Johannah married my grandfather Povey she stated her father as still alive (as he was in 1901), but he was listed as William James Turner. This is the first time the middle name had been used and I have not been able to connect a William James to antying around the time he was born.

On William's marriage certificate to Amy Turner it states they are both of "FULL" age; I take that to mean 21 years. On Williams death certificate it states he is 43 years. So we have an indication of ages here.

Thanks
Sappho

so I'm still confused ............. :-)

what is it you are looking to find among possible residents of these addresses?

if you have identified the right William Turner birth, the certificate will give his parents' names, when it comes?


is this the person you are taking to be him (most logically) in 1861?

Name: William Turner
Age: 8/12
Estimated Birth Year: 1860
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Turner
Mother's name: Emma Turner
Where born: Newington, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Newington St Mary
County/Island: Surrey
Registration district: Newington
Sub-registration district: St Peter Walworth

William Turner 27, tailor, born South Molton, Devon
Emma Turner 22, born Thorpe, Essex
William Turner 8/12


in 1871 in Battersea

William Turner 40
Emma Turner 33
William Turner 9
James Turner 6
Emma Turner 3

in 1881 at 4 Clarendon St, Southwark

William Turner 21 pipe maker tobacco
Annie Turner 20
Bady Turner 4

(it does say Annie and I don't know what 'Bady' is but that seems to be the right address)

in 1881 at 23 Parkside, Battersea

William Turner 50
Emma Turner 44
William Turner 20 tailor's apprentice
James Turner 17
Emma Turner 13
Fanny Turner 7


so oops ... that isn't the right William Turner in 1861 and 1871 because he's still with his parents in 1881 when yours was already married to Amy ...

I will just leave that collection here to rule out that William Turner!

you're excellently quick at replying to posts so we've been crossing :-)

I'm in NZ. Just had a cvall from overseas so sorry for the hold-up.

So will just digress what you have sent.

Sappho

JoonieCloonie

Thanks so much - your information is getting there for what I hope to find via address.

Sorry it is confusing. I think I did overload on information, but trying to avoid helpers doubling up on what I already know.

So...what I hope to find is if William's family were at those addresses pre his marriage, which is what you are doing on your time 23.53 reply. Thanks I am looking at this now and find it interesting.

That William Turner Aged 40 with wife Emma 33 may well be of interest. No likewise, dates are wrong.

The Devon one we have discounted as I do not tthey moved very far in those days, but not to be totally discounted, but is interesting.

It may be of help when we get the certificate, but what if it is wrong? Let us cross that bridge later, but thanks so much for information so far.

Many thanks,

Sappho

just to note -- the William Turner I had in 1861 and 1871 with the Devon-born father is definitely wrong, your William was married by 1881 but that William was living with his parents still and was a tailor

fingers crossed that he isn't the one whose birth certificate you will be getting :-)

Hello again JoonieCloonie,

Had to rush to the farm - emergency. All well though.

I hope you are right, but my relative has sent for this so I cannot yet quote references. Will email him in London so maybe have it for tomorrow.

You have been so helpful. Thank you so appreciaed.

Will get back with some details once I hve them.

Regards,

Sappho :-)

By the way JoonieCloonie,

Lived in St. Austell for 5 years between 1968 and 1974.

Know the area well - hope you have had success tracing the families you connect with.
;-)

I think this may be something, but cannot be sure until we get the 1860 birth certificate and I cannot trace this without the input of my London relative. However, this is a possibility for William's father who is also William Turner:-


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Household Information
Street ALFRED PLACE
County London, Surrey
Parish ST GEORGE SOUTHWARK
City
Town
Ecclesiastical District ST JUDE
Parliamentary Borough SOUTHWARK
Enumeration District
Registration District ST GEORGE SOUTHWARK
Country ENGLAND
Category Census, Land & Surveys
Record set 1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Collections from Great Britain
Person 1
First Name JOHN
Last Name NEWRY
Birth Year 1816
Age 45
Birth Town
Birth County
Birth Place Not Known
Relationship To Head of Household SERVANT
Gender Male
Occupation GLASS CUTTER
Condition MARRIED
Archive Reference RG09
Folio 3
Page 6
Piece Number 333
Person 2
First Name ANN
Last Name FARMER
Birth Year 1795
Age 66
Birth Town Birmingham
Birth County Warwickshire
Birth Place England
Relationship To Head of Household MOTHER
Gender Female
Occupation
Condition MARRIED
Archive Reference RG09
Folio 3
Page 6
Piece Number 333
Person 3
First Name SARAH
Last Name FULLER
Birth Year 1844
Age 17
Birth Town Birmingham
Birth County Warwickshire
Birth Place England
Relationship To Head of Household SERVANT
Gender Female
Occupation GENERAL SERVANT
Condition MARRIED
Archive Reference RG09
Folio 3
Page 6
Piece Number 333
Person 4
First Name WILLIAM
Last Name TURNER
Birth Year 1834
Age 27
Birth Town Southwark
Birth County Surrey
Birth Place England
Relationship To Head of Household HEAD
Gender Male
Occupation ...BUILDER
Condition MARRIED
Archive Reference RG09
Folio 3
Page 6
Piece Number 333
Person 5
First Name MARY E
Last Name TURNER
Birth Year 1828
Age 33
Birth Town Southwark
Birth County Surrey
Birth Place England
Relationship To Head of Household WIFE
Gender Female
Occupation EMPLOYING 1 MAN
Condition MARRIED
Archive Reference RG09
Folio 3
Page 6
Piece Number 333
Person 6
First Name WILLIAM
Last Name TURNER
Birth Year 1861
Age 0
Birth Town Southwark
Birth County Surrey
Birth Place England
Relationship To Head of Household SON
Gender Male
Occupation
Condition
Archive Reference RG09
Folio 3
Page 6
Piece Number 333

Sappho

If the one in 1860 is wrong, then this is the only other possibility. I think it could be that the year of birth is connected to the date the census occurs.

:-S

For Ref for us.lol

ondon, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about William Turner
Name: William Turner
Spouse: Amy Noble
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 5 May 1879
Parish: St John the Evangelist, Walworth
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: William Turner
Spouse Father: William Noble
Register Type: Parish Register
:-)

Edit

Do you have William bn 1860 Death cert ,I would think that may have his Parents names on it