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We reckon William was living alone at 1 North Front at about 1851, but had moved around the area in different accomodation since his wife's death. North Front was probably quite a crowded and poor street so maybe he just simply slipped the net in 1851?

Gritty,

Frances' death certificate reveals she died in the presence of her husband at 18 Bell Street, Southampton. Where they were living at the time of the 1841 census.

Russell

PS. Thanks to +++DetEcTive+++ for the info on death certificates!

I've asked my relative if he has the death cert, as he has given causes of death on the info he gave me. He also had the date of death as 03/11/1846 and burial as 06/11/1846, but I found the following on familysearch.org:

Name: Frances Masters
Gender: Female
Burial Date: 01 Nov 1846
Burial Place: Southampton, Hampshire, England

...?

I suspect this is her death fits with the November burial- as Francis instead of Frances:

First name(s) FRANCIS
Last name MASTERS
Gender Unknown
Death quarter 4
Death year 1846
District SOUTHAMPTON
County Hampshire
Volume 7
Page 149
Country England

"Frances died in 1846, can I get a death certificate that far back?"

As long as the death was registered at a Register office, then yes, you ought to be able to purchase it.

Look up the reference numbers on http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ then using those numbers order from http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ @£9.25.

There have been instances where either the death wasn't registered especially in more remote areas, or the register entry never made it to the General Register Office.

Just writing up all the possibilities for William so I've got them all there. Thanks again very much to everyone for help looking in to it :)

Russell

Another IoW possibility, interesting!

Just looked at the 1841 census for the William Masters in Greenwich, Kent, that rules him out. Looked a good fit with the age and the fact he is from Southampton (1851 census) but it's definitely not the case!

Just throwing this one in the mix as well. Carisbrook is also IOW, I believe.


William Masters
England Births and Christenings
Name: William Masters
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 17 Nov 1776
Christening Place: Carisbrooke, Hampshire, England
Father's Name: John Masters
Mother's Name: Sarah
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C00813-4 , System Origin: England-EASy , GS Film number: 1470803

Frances died in 1846, can I get a death certificate that far back?

I made a mistake before saying William died at 9 Westgate Street - That was just where his daughter in law who registed the death lived at the time (1858).

IoW isn't an unrealistic suggestion at all. Just need that proof, that connection!

Thanks to all once again, great community here. Hope you all have a good New Year's Eve!

I think you may have a point with the links to Isle of Wight- many of my family born IOW later moved across the water and lived along the south coast- and there are possible baptisms to fit.

In 1841 it states he's born in county- Isle of wight was part of Hampshire then.

Would still be interested in the address on Frances death cert as I think finding William (and place of birth) on the 1851 might be the key.

I have the Hampshire Genealogical Society transcriptions of baptisms 1660-1837
{plus marriages and deaths!}

There are just the two baptisms of William 1784 and John 1785 for William and Edith
and the two for William and Frances in 1817 and 1819, which makes me wonder if they were somewhere else during the gaps ?

I cannot find a death for Edith either !

Perhaps there is a link to the Isle of Wight ?

Hi Gwyn,

Yeh it does seem odd that they'd have a child in 1777, get married in 1782, then christen the child in 1784 doesn't it...

I don't have a parish register copy for it, no. Perhaps I should go to the record office at some point and have a look, that's a good idea.

I don't know much about William the blacksmith. There's a lot of dockers in my ancestry obviously because of the area but William's blacksmith shop was on East Street, which is within the old town walls, and a bit away from the docks/port. He's also listed as a farrier which is horseshoes etc.

He was living on Bell Street on the 1841 census.
According to parish records when his son George was born in 1819 he was a blacksmith on East Street. I have no idea what he got up to in the years before and inbetween. Bell St is a very short walk from East St.

Interesting that you have blacksmith links to Southampton too, and Whippingham! Very interesting..

Russell

Do you have a parish register copy for the marriage of William and Fanny?

I was wondering if the witness names might lead us to his father / parents perhaps.

Do you know if William had any links to working with the ship-building on Southampton Water?

One of my ancestors was a blacksmith in the Southampton area and Bucklers Hard shipbuilding and strangely they had links to Whippingham, where one son was a journeyman blacksmith.

Gwyn

Prickly Holly posted a likely marriage for William and Edith Masters, but it's in 1782, long after you think your William was born.

Just adding the detail to show the marriage was at ALL saiints:

First name(s) William
Last name Masters
Name note -
Marriage year 1782
Marriage date 1782
Marriage place Southampton, All Saints, Hampshire, England
Father's first name(s) -
Father's last name -
Mother's first name(s) -
Mother's last name -
Spouse's first name(s) Edith
Spouse's last name Beere
Spouse's father's fist name(s) -
Spouse's father's last name -
Spouse's mother's first name(s) -
Spouse's mother's last name -
Residence Southampton, Hampshire, England
Place Southampton
County Hampshire
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

Hi all, thanks again so much for looking in to this.

Whilst William seems to evade the 1851 census, we do know he was buried in Southampton. Death given as aged 81 as I mentioned.

I imagine the burial above is correct, as there are no other Frances Masters in the area other than 'ours', and I have her death date as 3rd November 1846 in Southampton, buried at All Saints.

I think there's a chance that he could be the son of William and Edith - *IF* this is the case, then it would mean he was christened age 7. Is this uncommon? I was christened at about that age I think, maybe even older!

However, there is no way to say for certain if this is the case???

Many thanks again,
Russell Masters

Hampshire Advertiser - Saturday 11 September 1858

On the 7th instant in North Front, Southampton, Mr William Masters aged 81
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still trying to find William in 1851- Is this a burial for Frances? What address is given on her death certificate?

Select Burials:
Name: Frances Masters
Gender: Female
Burial Date: 1 Nov 1846
Burial Place: Southampton, Hampshire, England
FHL Film Number: 1596324
Reference ID: p 151

Ah, this one then. Are they the same person, I wonder? The William jr in 1841 is a J(ourneyman?) Gilder and his father a blacksmith.


1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
2, Fishers Rents, St Pauls, Greenwich, Kent, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Masters Head Married Male 69 1782 Brick Maker Southampton, Hampshire, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Masters Wife Married Female 63 1788 - Richmond, Surrey, England
Transcription
William Masters Son Unmarried Male 32 1819 Tile Maker Tower Hill, Middlesex, England


EDIT This is the wrong family as this is the 1841 for them.


1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Hill Street, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich, Kent, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
Wm Masters Male 58 1783 - tile maker
Transcription
Elizabeth Masters Female 53 1788 -
Transcription
Wm Masters Male 22 1819 -

Alviegal, familysearch has this for 1851

Name: William Masters
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Birthplace: Southampton, Hampshire
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Schedule Type: Household

I've found this-living in Kent with wife Elizabeth and he's a brickmaker

??


England & Wales Marriages, 1538-1940
about William Masters Name:William Masters
Gender:Male
Spouse's Name:Edith Beer
Marriage Date:13 Nov 1782
Marriage Place:Southampton, Hampshire, England

IF........that is the correct Baptism for your William Masters........

A Brother


England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
about John Masters Name:John Masters
Gender:Male
Baptism Date:30 Sep 1785
Baptism Place:All Saints, Southampton, Hampshire, England
Father:William Masters
Mother:Edith
FHL Film Number:1041733
Reference ID:item 6